Uber, DoorDash Sue NYC to Stop Delivery Drivers from Getting a Minimum Wage • Hacker News Board

Re: Uber, DoorDash Sue NYC to Stop Delivery Drivers from Getting a Minimum Wage

#111

Post by spamtarget » Mon, Jul 10, 2023, 4:14 PM UTC

thworp wrote: post #106

ryndbfsrw wrote: post #5

What a crap business model these companies have if they rely on haggling over legal loopholes to operate. The business case, at best, is the status quo remains with material threats to their operations if these laws change. This is a lose-lose for everyone. Ignore the morality arguments, why risk your money on something with almost zero upside and all this downside? Suing the government is not a sign of strength

I fully agree that these "blitzscale" business have a horrible business model that is not sound, both economically (depends on free funding) and morally (the goal is to corner the market or at least get an oligopoly and then exploit your position). That said I don't think a win here would help the current workers. Like all minimum wage laws this will reduce demand (obviously people don't want to pay a 12$ delivery fe…

There are lot of think could be done not to pay $12 delivery fee over a $20 order. For example, the cost of delivering a $100 order is pretty close to a cost of a $10 dollar order. This could be used for subsidizing the cheaper delivery cost by the more expensive ones, like saying delivery fee is 25% of the order and no tip, but minimum $5 (or something). So you pay $5 for a $10, $5 for a $20, and $25 for a $100 delivery, which is way easier to swallow. But this is just one of the most primitive ideas to handle that, the point is the make companies to figure out what is feasible, instead of letting them run rampant with whatever shady sh*t they can come up with.

Re: Uber, DoorDash Sue NYC to Stop Delivery Drivers from Getting a Minimum Wage

#112

Post by CodeSgt » Mon, Jul 10, 2023, 4:15 PM UTC

Eisenstein wrote: post #95

Shaanie wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think the moat for food delivery is big enough that capturing the market and hiking prices is a realistic option. Uber eats already has plenty of competition (at least in my country) from foodora, wolt and bolt food.

So, with a net income of -$9 billion, what is their business plan, then? * https://www.marketwatch.com/investing/stock/uber/company-pro...

Are you arguing that Uber’s business model isn’t sustainable or that it’s bad for both parties? Uber being in the red doesn’t mean it’s a net negative for everyone.

Re: Uber, DoorDash Sue NYC to Stop Delivery Drivers from Getting a Minimum Wage

#113

Post by lotsoweiners » Mon, Jul 10, 2023, 4:30 PM UTC

izzydata wrote: post #81

Why do so many able bodied individuals pay at minimum twice as much for food to brought to them? I could understand a market need for the elderly or disabled, but why would a perfectly healthy 20 year old find this to be a reasonable cost to eat a typical meal?

It’s more expensive but not THAT expensive. I don’t use adopt Dash/Uber Eats often but I live in the suburbs and my wife doesn’t drive so these are examples of when we use it:

I’m still sleeping and my wife wants to get donuts or breakfast burritos for the kids on a Saturday.

I am out at a basketball game and the wife wants food for the family that isn’t pizza.

We’ve been hanging out in the pool drinking all afternoon and we want an easy dinner that isn’t pizza.

Re: Uber, DoorDash Sue NYC to Stop Delivery Drivers from Getting a Minimum Wage

#114

Post by sneak » Mon, Jul 10, 2023, 4:41 PM UTC

AlexandrB wrote: post #84

sneak wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If it were bad for all parties involved, customers would not willingly and freely choose to use it.

That would be true if Uber didn't spend so much money subsidizing rides throughout its history. A customer would be dumb to refuse $2 of service for $1 of payment even if the system being created is going to lock them into an extractive duopoly later. You can already see this at work as Uber tries to become profitable - ride availability, cost, and quality are getting worse but people continue to use them out of habi…

How does Uber doing price dumping (if in fact they were) lock anyone into anything later? Before Uber the options were "walk" or "call a taxi and pray".

Re: Uber, DoorDash Sue NYC to Stop Delivery Drivers from Getting a Minimum Wage

#115

Post by _8j50 » Mon, Jul 10, 2023, 4:52 PM UTC

em-bee wrote: post #101

treyfitty wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

NYC made non competes illegal a few weeks ago.

i think parent means that the company can stop them from working two jobs at the same time. not allowing that is still legal. illegal non-competes are only about switching jobs.

Yeah, that's what I meant. I wonder if it is even legal to work two jobs as an employee paid by the hour at the same time. Sounds like that might be fraud.

Re: Uber, DoorDash Sue NYC to Stop Delivery Drivers from Getting a Minimum Wage

#116

Post by Eisenstein » Mon, Jul 10, 2023, 5:14 PM UTC

CodeSgt wrote: post #112

Eisenstein wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So, with a net income of -$9 billion, what is their business plan, then? * https://www.marketwatch.com/investing/stock/uber/company-pro...

Are you arguing that Uber’s business model isn’t sustainable or that it’s bad for both parties? Uber being in the red doesn’t mean it’s a net negative for everyone.

Operating at a loss drives out anyone who doesn't have the money to burn forever to compete with you, and when the market is yours you can re-align prices to allow profit. This seems clear to me and the 'net negative' is that you don't actually have a free market anymore. Inserting yourself between product and fulfillment and taking the surplus value that would have gone to either customer or producer is not a gain for anyone but the people who invested in the rent-seeker.

Re: Uber, DoorDash Sue NYC to Stop Delivery Drivers from Getting a Minimum Wage

#117

Post by hubertjeannine » Mon, Jul 10, 2023, 5:14 PM UTC

_8j50 wrote: post #69

habosa wrote: post #31

To be clear before I say anything: I think the entire food delivery app business model is bad for all parties involved and that these companies are bad actors. But … I don’t think the cities are properly accounting for the ease of using multiple apps? If a driver is logged into Uber and Doordash and GrubHub on 3 phones waiting for a delivery they probably should not be accruing $17.96*3 per hour at that time. But it…

I disagree, the business model works out just fine for a lot of people. At the core of the problem is the concept if a contractor. These cities are trying to go around a federally defiend concept of contracting. You agree, as a self-employed business operator to provide services and get paid for it. Employees on the other hand provide labour which means performing assigned tasks under a specific job title, typically…

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Re: Uber, DoorDash Sue NYC to Stop Delivery Drivers from Getting a Minimum Wage

#118

Post by CryptoBanker » Mon, Jul 10, 2023, 8:11 PM UTC

hospitalJail wrote: post #87

izzydata wrote: post #81

Why do so many able bodied individuals pay at minimum twice as much for food to brought to them? I could understand a market need for the elderly or disabled, but why would a perfectly healthy 20 year old find this to be a reasonable cost to eat a typical meal?

I am too cheap to do this, but other people are too lazy to save money. Plenty of people can afford this food and some luxuries, but then contribute 0 to their retirements. Heck, as much as I like one of my best buds, he is a 6 fig earner and saves nothing. He buys niche cars, goes on soo many trips, orders so much delivery food, then complains how expensive his student loans are. Back in 2018 before he bought that c…

You say lazy, I say time is money. Entry level jobs expect more and more hours out of young workers these days. Some people would rather pay for a meal and eat it in 30 minutes than spend 3x that time cooking and cleaning.

Re: Uber, DoorDash Sue NYC to Stop Delivery Drivers from Getting a Minimum Wage

#119

Post by macintosh-hd » Mon, Jul 10, 2023, 10:40 PM UTC

habosa wrote: post #31

To be clear before I say anything: I think the entire food delivery app business model is bad for all parties involved and that these companies are bad actors. But … I don’t think the cities are properly accounting for the ease of using multiple apps? If a driver is logged into Uber and Doordash and GrubHub on 3 phones waiting for a delivery they probably should not be accruing $17.96*3 per hour at that time. But it…

Doordash has been adding increasingly annoying penalties for rejecting orders, to the point where I doubt it would be worth it to run them alongside another app. I’ve done it in the past but I basically cannot anymore as I had a <30% acceptance rate due to low paying orders, and now I’d be stuck only getting bad orders for days to get out.

Re: Uber, DoorDash Sue NYC to Stop Delivery Drivers from Getting a Minimum Wage

#120

Post by DropInIn » Tue, Jul 11, 2023, 12:20 AM UTC

sneak wrote: post #114

AlexandrB wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That would be true if Uber didn't spend so much money subsidizing rides throughout its history. A customer would be dumb to refuse $2 of service for $1 of payment even if the system being created is going to lock them into an extractive duopoly later. You can already see this at work as Uber tries to become profitable - ride availability, cost, and quality are getting worse but people continue to use them out of habi…

How does Uber doing price dumping (if in fact they were) lock anyone into anything later? Before Uber the options were "walk" or "call a taxi and pray".

... seriously?

The competition ceases to exist and the requirements to re-enter the market once the dumper is a monopoly (usually with the politics power that entails) is beyond the scope for damn near anyone to achieve.