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Once hailed for decriminalizing drugs, Portugal is now having doubts

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Re: Once hailed for decriminalizing drugs, Portugal is now having doubts

#111

Post by xwolfi »

scarface_74 wrote: post #95
jasonhansel wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are options between "an inhumane system of frequent and revolving incarceration" and "never punishing public drug use under any circumstances."

And what is that option that doesn’t involve the Justice system targeting minorities and the police not killing people for trying to sell a single cigarette.

Well in France we provide methadone and subutex for free to anyone who needs it, but we also chase drug dealers, jail large consumers, do heavy prevention in schools etc.

Our goal was never to stop drug use, we know it's impossible, but to both make it survivable by victims, stop the violence on the citizens who did nothing wrong but walk past a drug victim, and also stop the spread of the victimization (that's why we hesitate so strongly about Marijuana: there's a 100% chance in increases its victims rather than reduce them).

Minorities are not the only drug victims, a lot of the victims are also in people of the mainstream cultural segment of the population. I'd even argue these victims make it all the more important to help control the problem since they have richer parents who hold more power and vote etc.

Don't lose sight of the point, the evil is the drug, not the police, in the drug fight. The victims of the drug trades are killed by the drug in 99% of the deaths, and by police abuse for the rest. It is not a police problem first and foremost.

Re: Once hailed for decriminalizing drugs, Portugal is now having doubts

#112

Post by hotpotamus »

ndlan wrote: post #42
personjerry wrote: post #12

> Porto’s police have increased patrols to drug-plagued neighborhoods. But given existing laws, there’s only so much they can do. On a recent afternoon, an emaciated man in striped pants sleeping in front of a state-funded drug-use center awoke to a patrol of four officers. He sat up, then defiantly began assembling his crack pipe. Officers walked on, shaking their heads. What were they supposed to in a different cou…

Arrest him and put him through forced rehab.

I hope he has good insurance because rehab isn't cheap.

Re: Once hailed for decriminalizing drugs, Portugal is now having doubts

#113

Post by palata »

lolinder wrote: post #104
palata wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can we reasonably assume that in the idea of "looking at the ultra rich to help solving poverty", there is fundamentally an idea that... well... it should be done in a way that will help poverty? Or was it that unclear that I was talking about solving poverty, with the idea that all the money that goes for ultra rich could actually be distributed better?

Rhetoric matters, and you didn't say "looking at the ultra rich to help solve poverty", you said "prevent the ultra rich [from] get[ting] even richer". If you had said the former, I wouldn't have objected. What you actually said felt more like class warfare than a serious proposal to help poor people.

It goes, literally, like this:

> Solve poverty > How? > Maybe a first step would be to prevent the ultra rich to get even richer.

If you can't understand the similarity between this and "looking at the ultra rich to help solve poverty", honestly I don't know what I can do.

Re: Once hailed for decriminalizing drugs, Portugal is now having doubts

#114

Post by cudgy »

themitigating wrote: post #96
vngzs wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Indeed. They slashed funding to successful parts of the strategy and now claim the strategy failed. A convenient narrative for politicians, but hardly truth.

[flagged]

You forgot:

Large company complains that costs are rising for the services they are providing.

“We need to give more money to large company because they cannot make a reasonable profit and the company is funding my reelection campaign.”

Large company sells personal data gathered from citizens to other private companies, homeland security, and whoever else wants to pay the toll.

“What a sweet deal! The citizens are paying out of their wallets and their personal privacy.”

Re: Once hailed for decriminalizing drugs, Portugal is now having doubts

#115

Post by themitigating »

cudgy wrote: post #114
themitigating wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

You forgot: Large company complains that costs are rising for the services they are providing. “We need to give more money to large company because they cannot make a reasonable profit and the company is funding my reelection campaign.” Large company sells personal data gathered from citizens to other private companies, homeland security, and whoever else wants to pay the toll. “What a sweet deal! The citizens are pa…

I didn't forget that, I didn't mention it because we're discussing the government of Portugal, California, and government services being cut.

I can't tell if this is some weird whataboutism like "yeah maybe the republicans but how about them companies, since they're also bad that kinda shows that everyone is, really no point in getting mad at Republicans right?"

Re: Once hailed for decriminalizing drugs, Portugal is now having doubts

#116

Post by scarface_74 »

xwolfi wrote: post #111
scarface_74 wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And what is that option that doesn’t involve the Justice system targeting minorities and the police not killing people for trying to sell a single cigarette.

Well in France we provide methadone and subutex for free to anyone who needs it, but we also chase drug dealers, jail large consumers, do heavy prevention in schools etc. Our goal was never to stop drug use, we know it's impossible, but to both make it survivable by victims, stop the violence on the citizens who did nothing wrong but walk past a drug victim, and also stop the spread of the victimization (that's why w…

> Minorities are not the only drug victims, a lot of the victims are also in people of the mainstream cultural segment of the population

Minorities are often the victims of the Justice system in the US. When drugs were in an “inner city” problem. It was all about “poor morals” and “absentee fathers”.

When it happened in “rural America” it was the fault of those evil “illegal immigrants” and the drug companies and “let’s treat it like a disease”.

“ It is not a police problem first and foremost.”

It is when you’re targeted because of the color of your skin.

Re: Once hailed for decriminalizing drugs, Portugal is now having doubts

#117

Post by landemva »

cscurmudgeon wrote: post #49
virgildotcodes wrote: post #7

Talk about burying the lede, 11 years ago they privatized their drug oversight operation and cut funding by over 80%. Gee, I wonder if that could have an impact? > After years of economic crisis, Portugal decentralized its drug oversight operation in 2012. A funding drop from 76 million euros ($82.7 million) to 16 million euros ($17.4 million) forced Portugal’s main institution to outsource work previously done by th…

Why should the state spend any money here at all? If you want the freedom from society to use drugs, then you shouldn't rely on society for that.

Portugal was previously (1990s) spending money on police, courts, and jails. They had shifted the resources, and it had seemed to be successful until something changed in the past few years.

Re: Once hailed for decriminalizing drugs, Portugal is now having doubts

#118

Post by boringuser2 »

wesselbindt wrote: post #93
boringuser2 wrote: post #43

People who think drugs should be descriminalized often have no experience with actual criminal justice, and are often recreational drug users themselves (i.e. too close to the issue). It is a conspiracy theory to believe that drug criminalization has a strictly for-profit motive despite near universal adoption as a policy. That is to say, you believe a conspiracy theory casually.

>and are often recreational drug users themselves (i.e. too close to the issue) I think this is an interesting thought. As a recreational drug user myself (I drink alcohol sometimes), I do indeed feel like drugs should be legalized, so as to enable regulation. But I don't feel like me dealing with the subject in my day to day life should have a bearing on whether I'm able to have an informed opinion on the matter. It…

Literally everyone opposes rape.

Re: Once hailed for decriminalizing drugs, Portugal is now having doubts

#119

Post by wesselbindt »

the-printer wrote: post #108
wesselbindt wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>and are often recreational drug users themselves (i.e. too close to the issue) I think this is an interesting thought. As a recreational drug user myself (I drink alcohol sometimes), I do indeed feel like drugs should be legalized, so as to enable regulation. But I don't feel like me dealing with the subject in my day to day life should have a bearing on whether I'm able to have an informed opinion on the matter. It…

> It's like saying rape victims are too close to rape and therefore their opinions on rape legislation are skewed. No...no.

Exactly, I completely agree, it's a very silly thought! What makes drug use different from my example that people aren't able to have an informed opinion on it when they're involved?

Re: Once hailed for decriminalizing drugs, Portugal is now having doubts

#120

Post by boringuser2 »

cwkoss wrote: post #80
boringuser2 wrote: post #43

People who think drugs should be descriminalized often have no experience with actual criminal justice, and are often recreational drug users themselves (i.e. too close to the issue). It is a conspiracy theory to believe that drug criminalization has a strictly for-profit motive despite near universal adoption as a policy. That is to say, you believe a conspiracy theory casually.

"Strictly" seems to be constructing a strawman - I would guess almost everyone who believes in decriminalization acknowledges other motives like puritanicalism, racism, classism, labor productivity, adherence to the societal norms, etc.

Racism? Really?

So, execution for drug use in Malaysia has a root cause of racism.

This just goes to show you that these people have absolutely no intellectual rigor applied to any of their ideas.

Their fake ideology is built strictly on a convoluted set of shibboleths that apply only loosely as semi-believable just so stories in a Western (specifically American) context.

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