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Ivy League Schools Sure Look Like a Cartel

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Re: Ivy League Schools Sure Look Like a Cartel

#111

Post by camel_Snake »

ryukoposting wrote: post #61
whimsicalism wrote: post #55

Surprised the article does not discuss the much more impactful fact that Ivy’s coordinate to not provide merit scholarships . Columbia does a bit of defection on the side that is tolerated, but otherwise there are no merit scholarships for Ivy league students.

This one has always been truly baffling to me. By all means, make sure that need-based scholarships are plentiful, but isn't great academics the entire point of the Ivy league? I was never going to make it into an Ivy anyway, but I remember learning about that system as a middle-class high school kid and thinking "huh, sucks for me I guess." Too rich for need-based scholarships, too poor to pay full price.

> but isn't great academics the entire point of the Ivy league?

No, that is just branding. If these institutions were truly based on merit the legacy system wouldn't exist.

Re: Ivy League Schools Sure Look Like a Cartel

#112

Post by stale2002 »

oarabbus_ wrote: post #108
flerchin wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The schools offer competing services for the consumers. They've all agreed to not compete for certain consumers in the same way. Does that help you? An HOA is not an appropriate metaphor.

I don't see how this clarifies that it's not a appropriate metaphor. There are hundreds of schools or more that _do_ compete for consumers in that way. Similarly, HOAs in some areas may restrict boat parking. Other HOAs however, will allow it. Why is the metaphor not appropriate?

The metaphor is not appropriate because a HOA isn't limiting competition in any meaningful or significant way.

Whether or not a couple houses in a couple block area, or 1 apartment building all "collude" to do something has very little effect on the competitive market of the massive housing industry.

But large, major players in the education space (each of which enrolls thousands of students), all agreeing together to do something, has a much larger effect, in comparison.

Re: Ivy League Schools Sure Look Like a Cartel

#113

Post by oarabbus_ »

stale2002 wrote: post #95
tedunangst wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Because 1 ivy league school should have no business forcing a different school on the other side of the country on how they run their business Fortunately, all the Ivy League schools are on the same side, in same corner even, of the country.

So no they should have no business forcing other ivy leagues to do things then. Because houses in the same HOA are literally right next to each other. Like a block away, whereas the same is not true for schools.

>Because houses in the same HOA are literally right next to each other. Like a block away, whereas the same is not true for schools.

There are HOAs with tens of thousands of homes, spanning dozens of miles, this is not true.

Re: Ivy League Schools Sure Look Like a Cartel

#114

Post by stale2002 »

oarabbus_ wrote: post #113
stale2002 wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So no they should have no business forcing other ivy leagues to do things then. Because houses in the same HOA are literally right next to each other. Like a block away, whereas the same is not true for schools.

>Because houses in the same HOA are literally right next to each other. Like a block away, whereas the same is not true for schools. There are HOAs with tens of thousands of homes, spanning dozens of miles, this is not true.

> There are HOAs with tens of thousands of homes, spanning dozens of miles

Still has a significantly smaller effect on the market than a bunch of education institutions coming together to collude.

The education systems aren't even next to each other either. They don't have any business controlling other schools.

At least there is some nominal justification for a house to control their neighbors house, given that it is a living community.

I do not think that education systems as an entire system have the same justification to control one another.

Instead, they should compete in the market.

Re: Ivy League Schools Sure Look Like a Cartel

#115

Post by horns4lyfe »

ryukoposting wrote: post #61
whimsicalism wrote: post #55

Surprised the article does not discuss the much more impactful fact that Ivy’s coordinate to not provide merit scholarships . Columbia does a bit of defection on the side that is tolerated, but otherwise there are no merit scholarships for Ivy league students.

This one has always been truly baffling to me. By all means, make sure that need-based scholarships are plentiful, but isn't great academics the entire point of the Ivy league? I was never going to make it into an Ivy anyway, but I remember learning about that system as a middle-class high school kid and thinking "huh, sucks for me I guess." Too rich for need-based scholarships, too poor to pay full price.

Excluding middle class kids is the point. The needs based scholarships are an obfuscation.

Re: Ivy League Schools Sure Look Like a Cartel

#116

Post by MisterBastahrd »

coldtea wrote: post #80
lofatdairy wrote: post #60

Cui bono? There are a lot of problems with the Ivy League, the lack of athletic scholarships are one of the few things they do absolutely right. The thing is that athletics are less, not more democratic as a distribution mechanism for admission slots. The author seems to be under the mistaken belief that most of these slots would be available for your football and basketball players, where stories of rising from pove…

> the lack of athletic scholarships are one of the few things they do absolutely right. The thing is that athletics are less, not more democratic as a distribution mechanism for admission slots A more basic problem with "athletic scholarships" is that being an athlete has absolutely nothing to do with being an academic/scholar/student of something else. It might be a good way to bring some publicity to the school, an…

> A more basic problem with "athletic scholarships" is that being an athlete has absolutely nothing to do with being an academic/scholar/student of something else.

Welcome to 1910.

> It might be a good way to bring some publicity to the school, and to make it have a strong team. But it has absolutely nothing to do with a school's intended purpose (except the "make money" purpose).

It engages people who care about sports but don't really care about the research being performed there. Most people attending universities never get an advanced degree. I wouldn't even consider a JD or MBA an advanced degree so much as a professional certificate masquerading as advanced education.

> Athletic scholarships should only be a thing in sports academies - where you're trained to be a coach, a PE teacher, or a related academic in some of those areas.

Meanwhile, former athletes who were able to attend universities due to athletics and have since become wealthy regularly donate millions to their alma maters.

> In fact, universities and colleges should just have clubs to play sports informally, at the same level they have a music playing club, or a gym, or a cooking club. Like in the rest of the civilized (on that matter at least) world.

Well, it turns out that universities are full of educated people and they've run the numbers. The numbers say that athletics are an attraction to universities for students and alumni alike.

Re: Ivy League Schools Sure Look Like a Cartel

#117

Post by fsckboy »

brian_cunnie wrote: post #64
lofatdairy wrote: post #60

Cui bono? There are a lot of problems with the Ivy League, the lack of athletic scholarships are one of the few things they do absolutely right. The thing is that athletics are less, not more democratic as a distribution mechanism for admission slots. The author seems to be under the mistaken belief that most of these slots would be available for your football and basketball players, where stories of rising from pove…

> It has historical roots in excluding Jewish students I'm glad the Ivy (Penn) that I graduated from over thirty years ago was enlightened enough to admit good students regardless of whether they were Jewish. Or Asian. > athletics has been a backdoor for admissions ... used to exclude ... those outside the upper class. The student athlete I knew, my roommate Tony Tomaska, was the son of a Chicago policeman. He played…

The post WWII period was a golden age for social progress. Along with the final collapse of colonial empires ruled over by royal families came a corresponding breaking down of class and overt ethnic/racial barriers in the West and America, with universities using test scores to open their doors to students of merit regardless of background or gender.

but that golden age, having achieved remarkable success, is over. It was predicted by somebody-nobody-listened-to that strip-mining IQ and EQ talent from various communities and elevating them to elite status would leave behind communities more deeply impoverished and dysfunctional than they were before. And what is our politics today but that exact battle?

Re: Ivy League Schools Sure Look Like a Cartel

#118

Post by aidenn0 »

grogenaut wrote: post #93
michaelbuckbee wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Netflix has a docu-series called "Last Chance U" about the junior college athletic system and how it operates. I knew intellectually that college athletes were coddled academically and while it's hard not to root for the individuals depicted in the documentary to succeed it's also hard not to think that there must be dozens of kids at the schools where they come from that were more academically inclined and could hav…

Having played college ball at an high end academic school a few thoughts here. Last Chance U is great and a great insight, I really enjoy the show, and get heart broken for these kids. You can't really get schaudenfraude when they fail like other shows or dramas. But there's a few things you may not have caught, which seems to be the same across most college sports and just exacerbates as you become more competitive/…

> If you haven't played school sports or don't have kids who play sports, a coach can often wield more influence over a kid than parents can.

I heard a (possibly apocryphal) story. One of Tony Dungy's kids was playing high school football, and was just grabbing a slice of toast for breakfast. Tony tells him "you need a bigger meal with protein before practice."

A week later he sees his son getting up early to make a big breakfast, and comments on it. His son says "yeah, coach told me I need to eat more"

Re: Ivy League Schools Sure Look Like a Cartel

#119

Post by grogenaut »

Kon-Peki wrote: post #109
grogenaut wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean what sports outside of Football/Baseball/Basketball/Soccer don't bias towards the elites? These most popular sports are cheap and easy to play except contact football. You can play them in every park, with less than $100 of gear. They're very accessible. There's also Track and Field, which generally you can do cheaply and anywhere. After that you start getting restrictions on where you can do them and what it…

Hockey equipment is expensive once you get older. For young kids it is free/cheap. FYI, in most of the US, the NHL will buy your boy or girl their first set of equipment. Search for your nearest NHL team along with the words "Learn to Play" - sign up for a session at your nearest rink. Around me, it's the Chicago Blackhawks and they have sessions at rinks in Illinois, Indiana, Wisconsin, and Iowa. Some are even girls…

That's good on equipment. Smart of the NHL to subsidize like that... Ice rinks do seem to be more common the further north you go, and that's a significant expense as well, tho as you said may be subsidized. Is that true in less-affluent areas?

Re: Ivy League Schools Sure Look Like a Cartel

#120

Post by fsckboy »

pinewurst wrote: post #90
lofatdairy wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I do recommend the Third Reich in the Ivy League as a generally good read, which highlights the significantly more nazi-sympathetic student body at harvard with the more activist population at Columbia, largely in part due to the fact that Columbia failed to attract the white elites of NYC and had a larger Jewish population as a result. >The student athlete I knew, my roommate Tony Tomaska, was the son of a Chicago p…

FYI it’s “The Third Reich in the Ivory Tower”

there may be something good in the book(?) but talk about a title that makes the author sound unhinged

how about "vestiges of old fashioned bias remain in the ivory tower" or something

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