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In the past, I've had students call my problem sets “emotionally trying”

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Re: In the past, I've had students call my problem sets “emotionally trying”

#111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a good starting point. I suspect some of the disagreements in this comment section stem from the difference in mindset between people for whom classwork either directly applies to or closely resembles their intended career path, and others for whom a lot of classwork (like my statistics courses) appear simply as a rigid gate to gaining access to their best career. Perhaps a solution to the problem is better s…

I also reject the idea that everyone has the same ability. They don't. Everyone is different. I find when doing a collaborative project, partnering with someone just like me won't work. I need to find someone with complementary skills. Someone strong in the areas I'm weak in, and vice versa.

Agree! In fact I quit a previous job because I felt I was part of a clone army. I'm just not convinced that academic performance is as a strong predictor of ability as our reliance on this indicator suggests.

Re: In the past, I've had students call my problem sets “emotionally trying”

#112
post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But there are smart people who get all this stuff "easily" (previous practice, exposure). Or, simply by virtue of being more intelligent. Life is not fair, and some people do have it easier than others, without having to pay for it with extra study time. If you are pursuing a research career, and you observe other students putting similar amounts of effort, but obtaining much better results, understanding things mo…

> Or, simply by virtue of being more intelligent. Life is not fair … > If you are pursuing a research career, and you observe other students putting similar amounts of effort, but obtaining much better results, understanding things more quickly and getting better ideas, you should probably just drop out. That seems drastic even without accounting for untold ways people enter any stage of life with disadvantages. I me…

In your professional life, you are encountering people who are already heavily preselected, most recently by the hiring process, earlier by hiring and promotion processes of their previous companies, yet earlier by graduation requirements of their school, earlier by admission requirements, etc. People who should drop out, have already dropped out long before they met you, so you don't meet those very often, and thus the advice to drop out is not the one that you often give, but in fact this is the advice that most people have to hear before they ever meet you.

Re: In the past, I've had students call my problem sets “emotionally trying”

#113
post #5

My favorite history professor in college gave open book essay exams. He asked your opinion on topics, "what were the motivations of the leaders of the US revolution?" Even better were the questions that ended in "why or why not?" There were no right or wrong answers, if you could justify your answer in a reasonable manner, you got full points. Some students hated his tests, some students loved his tests. The students…

I would hate open-ended questions like that if I didn't know the professor and I didn't know the grading, because it relies on the professor's ability to evaluate what is reasonable justification. I'm sure if the professor was great, this strategy is wonderful, but it also relies on a leap of faith in terms of the student. For example, if I was a black man and the teacher was white, my essays about slavery would be n…

>I would hate open-ended questions like that if I didn't know the professor and I didn't know the grading, because it relies on the professor's ability to evaluate what is reasonable justification.

After my first stint in college I took about a decade off before returning for graduate school. I made it a policy to research all of my professors before classes began. If they had a book published, I bought it, and read it. It gave me remarkable insight into all of my professors (at least the ones who had published) before class actually began, and made it much easier to navigate the subjective grading minefield that so often exists.

Re: In the past, I've had students call my problem sets “emotionally trying”

#114
post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Same thing with passing a football or nailing a technical ice skating routine. You can either do it, or you can't. Practice helps but is not a panacea, unfortunately. Find another occupation, friend. You are owed nothing.

Even the NFL needs backup quarterbacks. There are examples in almost every profession that highlight the value of a spectrum of capability.

Backup NFL quarterback is a pretty damn elite job. There are what, 50 or 60 of them in the world? Vs dozens of NCAA div 1 starters who graduate every year.

Re: In the past, I've had students call my problem sets “emotionally trying”

#115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would hate open-ended questions like that if I didn't know the professor and I didn't know the grading, because it relies on the professor's ability to evaluate what is reasonable justification. I'm sure if the professor was great, this strategy is wonderful, but it also relies on a leap of faith in terms of the student. For example, if I was a black man and the teacher was white, my essays about slavery would be n…

> For example, if I was a black man and the teacher was white, my essays about slavery would be not about if I learned the material but my trying to work around determining how racist a teacher might be. That would be a valid concern regardless or your or professor’s race. And even if we take into account that people are more biased towards opinions that elevate them, we should also take into account what an average…

Believe it or not, professional historians are more than capable of effectively grading undergrad essays that don't contain anticapitalist screeds.

Re: In the past, I've had students call my problem sets “emotionally trying”

#116
post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My career advice is usually: 1. draw a circle around the things you enjoy doing 2. draw a circle around the things that pay well 3. draw a circle around the things you're good at The intersection is your best career path. I tried to be a musician. Epic failure. I tried sports. Catastrophic failure. I tried sales. Monumental failure. Persisting in those endeavors as a career is akin to beating my head on a rock. Peopl…

You might add a fourth circle for “what the world needs” (or, a more relaxed standard, “what is not actively harmful/promoting negative sum games”): https://themindfool.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/09/Ikigai_do...

My thoughts exactly, I was wondering, is this not just ikigai?

Re: In the past, I've had students call my problem sets “emotionally trying”

#117
post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But there are smart people who get all this stuff "easily" (previous practice, exposure). Or, simply by virtue of being more intelligent. Life is not fair, and some people do have it easier than others, without having to pay for it with extra study time. If you are pursuing a research career, and you observe other students putting similar amounts of effort, but obtaining much better results, understanding things mo…

Some of the best scientists were and are unconventional late bloomers. Real science isn’t exam based. I’ve found that those who get the top grades at top schools can utterly fail to develop any novel research. In fact it’s a huge problem. Many grants proposals are largely ‘me too’ derivative works. This is why grad school hinges not on grades and exams but on actual research.

> Some of the best scientists were and are unconventional late bloomers.

Sure, but that's beside the point. The funding is limited, and, what's even worse, if we spread it too thin, best scientists will leave to make millions on the wall street instead. At some point, a decision must be made as to who gets to proceed in the research career, and who is cut. Sometimes the apparent mediocrities will turn out to be late bloomers, and cutting them would be a net loss.

However, and this is critical, you do not know who will be a late bloomer until they actually are. Late bloomers do not know that either, of course. In practice this means that when it comes to make a decision, you, and every other reasonable person, will pick someone who looks good on paper over someone who looks mediocre, but has a chance of becoming a late bloomer.

Doing otherwise would be reasonable only if mediocrities tended to have on average better output in the long term than people who look good on paper, but that would only cause us to revisit what the metrics of what makes one look good on paper, because they would clearly then be wrong. They aren't: by and large, people who do well in exams tend to do better in actual research than people who suck at exams, even though the exams don't actually resemble actual research much.

In short, when you bring up potential loss of cutting late bloomers, you should not forget about best scientists who never became one, because they were outcompeted by a mediocrity who never became a late bloomer.

> Many grants proposals are largely ‘me too’ derivative works.

Yes, and to me this is a sign that too many people are involved in research. If we suffer from deluge of mediocre, derivative work, we should make the standards higher and put more wood behind fewer arrows, not push more mediocrities into the career.

Re: In the past, I've had students call my problem sets “emotionally trying”

#118
post #25
post #5

My favorite history professor in college gave open book essay exams. He asked your opinion on topics, "what were the motivations of the leaders of the US revolution?" Even better were the questions that ended in "why or why not?" There were no right or wrong answers, if you could justify your answer in a reasonable manner, you got full points. Some students hated his tests, some students loved his tests. The students…

A similar phenomenon I’ve found, is if I know something can be done, I will work at it until it is done. For example, I’ve come up with solutions in interviews that I thought were the best, and then the interviewer says, “can it be done in O(n) time?” At that point, something clicks in my brain that says, “oh, of course it can!” If only I could find a way to tap into that in advance.

The time complexity is real. I always say that I can give you an algorithm in any complexity you want- so make sure you don't give me any lower than is possible, or the garbage I put out won't work.

Re: In the past, I've had students call my problem sets “emotionally trying”

#119
post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But there are smart people who get all this stuff "easily" (previous practice, exposure). Or, simply by virtue of being more intelligent. Life is not fair, and some people do have it easier than others, without having to pay for it with extra study time. If you are pursuing a research career, and you observe other students putting similar amounts of effort, but obtaining much better results, understanding things mo…

> Or, simply by virtue of being more intelligent. Life is not fair, and some people do have it easier than others I'm really not convinced this is the case when reaching higher level education. My experience is that "being smart" is an advantage for the first years - say up to bachelor - at which point there is no magic: if you don't work, you won't get your exams. This is in part because most exams will test not onl…

> My experience is that "being smart" is an advantage for the first years - say up to bachelor - at which point there is no magic: if you don't work, you won't get your exams.

Yes, if you don't put in the effort, you won't achieve very much, but this doesn't mean that being smart is not an advantage. It is, both early and late. It is clearly advantageous to both be smart and put in the effort over just putting in the effort. In fact, if you read my comment carefully, you'll observe that I explictly pointed that out, here:

> and you observe other students putting similar amounts of effort

Next,

> I am a firm believer that exams test skill sets that are only partially correlated to being actually good at job X - even if X is fundamental research.

Again, if you read my comment carefully, you'll observe that I never mentioned exams. I discussed

> obtaining much better results, understanding things more quickly and getting better ideas,

which is what you do in actual research, not just exam studying. I would really appreciate it if you read what I say more carefully, and respond to what I'm actually claiming, instead of what you incorrectly believe I am.

Re: In the past, I've had students call my problem sets “emotionally trying”

#120
post #63

Pretty much most senior level/grad algorithm classes are like this. They introduce a framework for solution and then give you about 2-3 example lecture problems that they walk you through. 2-3 weeks after being introduced to 5/6 frameworks its Exam day. You are given unique word problems that, in the eyes of someone experienced like a prof or PhD student, is trivial. But you are struggling with 1 week of homework exp…

> But there are smart people who get all this stuff "easily" (previous practice, exposure). Or, simply by virtue of being more intelligent. Life is not fair, and some people do have it easier than others, without having to pay for it with extra study time. If you are pursuing a research career, and you observe other students putting similar amounts of effort, but obtaining much better results, understanding things mo…

Experimental technique development and pushing the cutting edge of current state of the art techniques is a phenomena you can see everywhere in human society. It is there in every field of creative endeavor humans engage in, which I would say research is one of. Not only would I say that research isn't special, but I would also say that, just like every other field of creative endeavor that doesn't intrinsically bring a lot of money, those who write the checks (and those who focus on currying their favor) call the shots and sit at the center of influence networks and control the flow and direction of creative production.

It's not that I disagree with your fairly broad conclusions (that intrinsic variation in human capability exists) but I don't know if you are accurately describing intelligence, academics, the corporate world, or any of the things based on how you are interrelating them in your comment.

I take issue with what I see to be a lot of odd presumptions in your comment:

(1) the concept of general human intelligence (which maps cleanly across all capabilities) is only realistic

(1a) it can be be cleanly measured

(1b) it can be used to neatly order disciplines by practitioner intelligence, and

(1c) it is immutable

(2) the bounded class-like environment usably maps performance to a capability to successfully conduct research in an unbounded academic research environment, and

(3) some suitably generic conception of "intelligence based capability" exists which can accurately rank various fields of theoretical or applied research skills

(4) that if you rank these fields of research by the intelligence level of its average practitioners, academic research requires world class intelligence, higher than what is demanded by startups and the corporate world, with starting a family dead last

I think each of these assumptions are very optimistic, and the conclusion, that not everyone is meant to be world class, is trivially correct enough to be empty. Of course not everyone is meant to be world class; that is the definition of world class, that its individuals rank first in the world. It doesn't tell you anything about how people get there, or what you can actually do to influence your ability or that of someone else to get there.

In every one of the fields you actually talked about (athletics, research, startups, corporate world), it's not enough to just have raw biological ingredients for high performance. It is a combination of:

a) raw biological ingredients in the candidate to have capacity for some specific mastery

b) exposure, growing up, to what that specific mastery looks like

c) oversight, tutelage and mentorship by senior practitioners with demonstrated world class specific mastery

d) a cohesive strategy guiding a playbook of tactics (likely designed in combination with c) to keep rate of skill improvement consistently high enough to efficiently approach

e) intentional, consistent, effective practice by the candidate

f) a pipeline of high value opportunities to develop in the course of pursuing mastery

As with research, these are the raw ingredients necessary for success in any field of creative endeavor humans engage in. The vast majority of these factors do not include the biological "raw intelligence" -- and it's not that it's useless, it's that it is necessary but insufficient. And so you can and will often see practitioners with differentially somewhat less raw chops and somewhat more tenacity or discipline outperform and develop better mastery than practitioners with the converse. Plenty of geniuses failed to achieve anything with that genius besides misery and zero outcomes.

It takes a lot more than just being smart to truly be world-class at anything in 2022.

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