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In the past, I've had students call my problem sets “emotionally trying”

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Re: In the past, I've had students call my problem sets “emotionally trying”

#91

Post by WalterBright »

haswell wrote: post #84
xyzzyz wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But there are smart people who get all this stuff "easily" (previous practice, exposure). Or, simply by virtue of being more intelligent. Life is not fair, and some people do have it easier than others, without having to pay for it with extra study time. If you are pursuing a research career, and you observe other students putting similar amounts of effort, but obtaining much better results, understanding things mo…

> and you observe other students putting similar amounts of effort, but obtaining much better results, understanding things more quickly and getting better ideas, you should probably just drop out I'm sorry, but even if this is true under some circumstances, this seems like terrible general advice, and only matters if your only goal is to reach the top echelons of your field. That doesn't mean there is no room for "a…

My career advice is usually:

1. draw a circle around the things you enjoy doing

2. draw a circle around the things that pay well

3. draw a circle around the things you're good at

The intersection is your best career path.

I tried to be a musician. Epic failure. I tried sports. Catastrophic failure. I tried sales. Monumental failure. Persisting in those endeavors as a career is akin to beating my head on a rock.

People are different. Viva la difference.

Re: In the past, I've had students call my problem sets “emotionally trying”

#92

Post by progman32 »

chitowneats wrote: post #70
progman32 wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or a better teacher. The limiting factor isn't necessarily the student.

So we should ensure equal opportunity to ice-skating lessons, in perpetuity, for all humans? Just in case?

No, I find that position rather absurd. I'm not talking about entitlement. I was reacting to a train of thought started two posts up:

> There just was not enough time dedicated to dissecting how to parse word problem, look for patterns, map it to a framework. It was basically left to the student to figure it out in 1 week based on 3-4 homework problems.

My position is that, perhaps, it is counterproductive to tell people who have some trouble in this environment to "find another occupation" based on such a limited measure of performance. We've never defined what the occupation is in this exchange, so perhaps I'm just unintentionally talking past you. I'm certainly biased. The autodidacts I've worked with (who intentionally dropped out of the rigid, unforgiving environment of academia) have been among the biggest contributors on teams I've participated in. In environments more suited to them, they learn just as fast as folks with a more traditional background. In these instances, the occupation was fine. The teacher needed to be swapped out.

Re: In the past, I've had students call my problem sets “emotionally trying”

#93

Post by chitowneats »

haswell wrote: post #86
chitowneats wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Same thing with passing a football or nailing a technical ice skating routine. You can either do it, or you can't. Practice helps but is not a panacea, unfortunately. Find another occupation, friend. You are owed nothing.

Even the NFL needs backup quarterbacks. There are examples in almost every profession that highlight the value of a spectrum of capability.

Backup quarterbacks in the NFL is actually the worst possible example you could've given here. How many of those do you think they need relative to the population ? What level of play do you imagine they have to exhibit?

Unflagged remix yayy yayyyeee

Re: In the past, I've had students call my problem sets “emotionally trying”

#94

Post by hahajk »

LarryMullins wrote: post #59
marmetio wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I doubt that. If the materials are limited, then by definition there's less to study. You can choose other things to study, but it's a gamble whether it will be useful.

There are different sorts of studying. To some people, studying means downloading the lecture notes, reviewing their own class notes, getting the slide deck from the professor.. To other people, studing means they actually crack open the assigned texts (which many students didn't bother buying in the first place.)

And then to others it means spending going out and building things using concepts they're learning, not because they want to pass the course but because they're obsessed.

I just started as a teacher, I don't know if that kind of obsession can be cultivated in students through a specific environment or if it's something they bring with them into the class. Or if even trying to bottle that lightning alienates less willing students.

Re: In the past, I've had students call my problem sets “emotionally trying”

#95

Post by theGnuMe »

xyzzyz wrote: post #63
deskamess wrote: post #42

Pretty much most senior level/grad algorithm classes are like this. They introduce a framework for solution and then give you about 2-3 example lecture problems that they walk you through. 2-3 weeks after being introduced to 5/6 frameworks its Exam day. You are given unique word problems that, in the eyes of someone experienced like a prof or PhD student, is trivial. But you are struggling with 1 week of homework exp…

> But there are smart people who get all this stuff "easily" (previous practice, exposure). Or, simply by virtue of being more intelligent. Life is not fair, and some people do have it easier than others, without having to pay for it with extra study time. If you are pursuing a research career, and you observe other students putting similar amounts of effort, but obtaining much better results, understanding things mo…

Some of the best scientists were and are unconventional late bloomers.

Real science isn’t exam based. I’ve found that those who get the top grades at top schools can utterly fail to develop any novel research. In fact it’s a huge problem. Many grants proposals are largely ‘me too’ derivative works.

This is why grad school hinges not on grades and exams but on actual research.

Re: In the past, I've had students call my problem sets “emotionally trying”

#96

Post by [deleted] »

xyzzyz wrote: post #74
whywhywouldyou wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sometimes this is true. But sometimes the limiting factor really is the student. In my own experience I've seen fellow students put in less than half the effort I did (I watched them copy homework assignments in groups 30 minutes before class, spend a lot of time trying to track down last years exams, etc etc), and then have the nerve to complain afterwards that the exams were too hard.

I’ve seen fellow students put a quarter of time on studying that I did (they spent the rest studying all the other advanced stuff that I didn’t even have time to look at), and get top scores on exams and effortlessly explain everything to us mere mortals. Life simply is not fair.

[deleted]

Re: In the past, I've had students call my problem sets “emotionally trying”

#97

Post by LudwigNagasena »

Tostino wrote: post #57
LudwigNagasena wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> For example, if I was a black man and the teacher was white, my essays about slavery would be not about if I learned the material but my trying to work around determining how racist a teacher might be. That would be a valid concern regardless or your or professor’s race. And even if we take into account that people are more biased towards opinions that elevate them, we should also take into account what an average…

That's an interesting take, one that I don't believe is backed up by the data. Show me an economics program in the US pushing Marxist theory throughout.

Economics stands apart from other social sciences in its culture. It has pivoted quite heavily when it was transformed from political economy into economics during the marginal revolution. And while Marx can be jokingly referred as "a minor post-Ricardian" by some economists, he is considered a father of sociology alongside Comte, Weber, Durkheim and Spencer.

Data on Marxist self-identification among professors, table 12: https://www.researchgate.net/publication/287093322_The_socia...

Re: In the past, I've had students call my problem sets “emotionally trying”

#98

Post by progman32 »

WalterBright wrote: post #91
haswell wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> and you observe other students putting similar amounts of effort, but obtaining much better results, understanding things more quickly and getting better ideas, you should probably just drop out I'm sorry, but even if this is true under some circumstances, this seems like terrible general advice, and only matters if your only goal is to reach the top echelons of your field. That doesn't mean there is no room for "a…

My career advice is usually: 1. draw a circle around the things you enjoy doing 2. draw a circle around the things that pay well 3. draw a circle around the things you're good at The intersection is your best career path. I tried to be a musician. Epic failure. I tried sports. Catastrophic failure. I tried sales. Monumental failure. Persisting in those endeavors as a career is akin to beating my head on a rock. Peopl…

This is a good starting point. I suspect some of the disagreements in this comment section stem from the difference in mindset between people for whom classwork either directly applies to or closely resembles their intended career path, and others for whom a lot of classwork (like my statistics courses) appear simply as a rigid gate to gaining access to their best career.

Perhaps a solution to the problem is better societal acceptance of trade schools, but at least in my area a university degree is a surer shot. Even if the degree is just a tool to then go do something completely different.

Re: In the past, I've had students call my problem sets “emotionally trying”

#99

Post by haswell »

chitowneats wrote: post #93
haswell wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even the NFL needs backup quarterbacks. There are examples in almost every profession that highlight the value of a spectrum of capability.

Backup quarterbacks in the NFL is actually the worst possible example you could've given here. How many of those do you think they need relative to the population ? What level of play do you imagine they have to exhibit? Unflagged remix yayy yayyyeee

The point is that even in the NFL, there's a wide and very visible gap between the top and bottom levels of quarterback play, and that's taking into account that these players (including the backups) are already considered the best of the best.

I only mentioned the NFL because I was riffing on your comment about throwing footballs, but agree that it's generally a stretched analogy. The extreme scarcity at the top of most professional sports and the resulting lack of utility/career viability outside of the big leagues doesn't compare well to most vocations.

The argument also assumes the only reason someone plays football is to play in the NFL. I invested significant time learning to skate because I enjoy it, not because I think I'll become a professional hockey player.

Re: In the past, I've had students call my problem sets “emotionally trying”

#100

Post by turminal »

dan-robertson wrote: post #73

These threads are often fun because of the variety of ways people were taught things. It’s hard to guess how they compare because most people only end up doing one of the ways and there isn’t much randomisation in education. Where I studied, problem sets were purely pedagogical and didn’t contribute towards grades. It meant exams could be stressful but the questions in the homework could cover a wider range of diffic…

> ‘what’s yellow and equivalent to the axiom of choice?’

A yellow Tychonoff's theorem, obviously.

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