Kids and music lessons: why do many promising players quit early? • Hacker News Board

Re: Kids and music lessons: why do many promising players quit early?

#111

Post by JKCalhoun » Thu, Jan 05, 2023, 3:35 AM UTC

brandall10 wrote: post #55

ehaskins wrote: post #14

I've been teaching beginning guitar lessons for about seven years. Guitar is a little different in that, outside of classical guitar, there's very little traditional pedagogy, but from experience I think these things are generally true about most instruments. 1. When you start learning you sound terrible... for a long time. It's very difficult to stay motivated when you can hear your problems. 2. It's very difficult…

As a guitar player for over 30 years now, it's fascinating how quickly you can teach something like Smoke on the Water or Whole Lotta Love in the span of a few minutes to someone who has never picked up the instrument... sure the timing/fretting is off but it's close enough that their face will light up. To underscore your overall point, I took lessons in 2 phases: 1) At 10 years old, had a cheap classical guitar. Di…

Agree: TABS == good, sheet music == bad. (For beginners, anyway.)

Re: Kids and music lessons: why do many promising players quit early?

#112

Post by EGreg » Thu, Jan 05, 2023, 3:39 AM UTC

Because practicing is tedious.

I went through with it: https://magarshak.com/piano

And what was the point in the end? Classical music doesn’t have the fan base it used to.

Re: Kids and music lessons: why do many promising players quit early?

#113

Post by a9h74j » Thu, Jan 05, 2023, 3:56 AM UTC

JKCalhoun wrote: post #109

zozbot234 wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Early learning should be focused on musicality and improvisation, not refined performance technique. Historically, even music in the so-called 'classical' tradition was mostly improvised. It's only in the late 19th century or so that technically virtuosic-performance playing of old repertoire became the only known standard of quality; but what those pieces of music were intended for originally was something quite dif…

Perhaps it's because it's how I taught myself, but I am in the camp that chords should be taught first (guitar or piano). Notes, reading sheet music can come much later (if at all). Two or three chords on either the guitar or piano is an easy start and will open up a world of songs for the learner. I watched my daughters take lessons and tediously work through reading sheet music, learning scales... I thought it was…

I once attended a workshop by a guy who had been a salesperson for Piano I, Piano II etc books. He noted that sales of those fell off geometrically for each successive book. So he basically advocated/hawked an improv and "fakebook first" approach, as a means to make enjoyment [potentially] primary.

I had an interesting night some years ago interacting with a Google piano ML available online. It would broadly mirror your input is a sort of call and response way. Even with only a qwerty keyboard (i.e. home row) and really elementary melody/stacatto it was remarkably pleasing. Relatedly, This could be one reason I anticipate great potential with GPT-like tutors.

Re: Kids and music lessons: why do many promising players quit early?

#114

Post by maroonblazer » Thu, Jan 05, 2023, 4:03 AM UTC

GlenTheMachine wrote: post #96

My mom made me and both of my brothers take 9 years of piano lessons. Today, not one of us plays - I don't think any of us even has a keyboard in our houses. The reason for this is simply that we were never allowed to play the kind of music we liked . Which was, of course, rock. Or blues, or country. Or, really, anything with a beat. Nope; it was all classical all the time. And piano lessons were the only time we wer…

I was forced to take classical piano for 6 years starting at age 8. Hated it. Begged my parents to let me quit. They wouldn't.

Then we moved across the country and they said "Ok, you can quit piano."

In my new town I struck up a conversation on the school bus with two kids, one played bass and the other played drums. Said they would get together in the drummer's basement and "jam". "What's this 'jamming' you speak of?" I asked.

They invited me over and we played the one jazz-ish/blues tune I knew. I was hooked. Ran home and begged my parents to let me start lessons again, but this time rock/jazz. Since then I picked up guitar, bass, drums, a little alto sax, and continued studying piano. 40+ years later playing/making music is a huge part of my personal life.

I feel incredibly lucky that my folks didn't let me quit and that I met those two friends.

Re: Kids and music lessons: why do many promising players quit early?

#115

Post by S_A_P » Thu, Jan 05, 2023, 4:07 AM UTC

I’ve collected and played guitar for over 20 years and I am thinking of selling them on now. I may keep one but I am just not playing them anymore. I’ve kind of settled in to the ability to play and remember most chords and a dozen or so songs. I’m no longer writing music with guitar and my fingers just aren’t as fast as they once were. That said I’m having more fun than ever with a handful of synths/samplers/a rhodes and ableton live. I will say that with the caveat that I wish I had the ability to play guitar or any instrument really well

Re: Kids and music lessons: why do many promising players quit early?

#116

Post by pclmulqdq » Thu, Jan 05, 2023, 4:21 AM UTC

adriand wrote: post #100

zozbot234 wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Early learning should be focused on musicality and improvisation, not refined performance technique. Historically, even music in the so-called 'classical' tradition was mostly improvised. It's only in the late 19th century or so that technically virtuosic-performance playing of old repertoire became the only known standard of quality; but what those pieces of music were intended for originally was something quite dif…

This also tends to be my view because improvisation is what I enjoy doing musically the most, but my daughter (12 yo) takes piano lessons which are quite typical in their structure (Conservatory) and has no interest in improvisation, and in fact, has resisted my attempts to get her to try it. She's obsessed with classical music and practices all the time with no prompting (and is now able to play quite beautifully),…

I disagree with you, and I think that if your daughter has found something she likes doing with the instrument, you should encourage that, even if it's not what you wanted or expected.

As a child who loved classical music, I hated getting comments from my relatives that I should play them some rock or jazz. I just wanted to do my own thing. Honestly, it's also a very different style of playing - I later learned some jazz piano (to appease them) and it's less demanding on your fine motor control ("tone color") and more about playing precisely on beat, which I found a lot less fun.

Re: Kids and music lessons: why do many promising players quit early?

#117

Post by loeg » Thu, Jan 05, 2023, 4:21 AM UTC

GlenTheMachine wrote: post #96

My mom made me and both of my brothers take 9 years of piano lessons. Today, not one of us plays - I don't think any of us even has a keyboard in our houses. The reason for this is simply that we were never allowed to play the kind of music we liked . Which was, of course, rock. Or blues, or country. Or, really, anything with a beat. Nope; it was all classical all the time. And piano lessons were the only time we wer…

> And piano lessons were the only time we were ever exposed to classical music otherwise, so we had no opportunity to learn to like it; it was just a source of frustration and boredom.

To be fair, additional exposure may not have helped! I played several instruments as a kid / young adult, almost all of it classical or adjacent (old European music). My parents took us to the symphony. It just isn't what I like to listen to and wasn't motivating enough to keep my interested as a teen.

After fifteen years without making music at all, I've started picking up instruments again in the last two years. I've been playing (some) classical music, not because I like it, but because there's a lot of it for the instruments I've chosen and it's fun to play.

Re: Kids and music lessons: why do many promising players quit early?

#118

Post by pclmulqdq » Thu, Jan 05, 2023, 4:23 AM UTC

JKCalhoun wrote: post #111

brandall10 wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a guitar player for over 30 years now, it's fascinating how quickly you can teach something like Smoke on the Water or Whole Lotta Love in the span of a few minutes to someone who has never picked up the instrument... sure the timing/fretting is off but it's close enough that their face will light up. To underscore your overall point, I took lessons in 2 phases: 1) At 10 years old, had a cheap classical guitar. Di…

Agree: TABS == good, sheet music == bad. (For beginners, anyway.)

A lot of people fluent in sheet music don't appreciate how incomprehensible and information-dense it really is. If you just want to play a song, it's the wrong way to go.

Re: Kids and music lessons: why do many promising players quit early?

#119

Post by westoncb » Thu, Jan 05, 2023, 4:23 AM UTC

GlenTheMachine wrote: post #96

My mom made me and both of my brothers take 9 years of piano lessons. Today, not one of us plays - I don't think any of us even has a keyboard in our houses. The reason for this is simply that we were never allowed to play the kind of music we liked . Which was, of course, rock. Or blues, or country. Or, really, anything with a beat. Nope; it was all classical all the time. And piano lessons were the only time we wer…

Similar here. I really wanted to play guitar and had wanted to for years, but 1) there was already a keyboard in the house 2) I think my dad thought it would be better to learn principles via piano first—so, I took the piano lessons, absolutely hated 'em, quit after like 6mo and never went back.

Re: Kids and music lessons: why do many promising players quit early?

#120

Post by loeg » Thu, Jan 05, 2023, 4:24 AM UTC

djtango wrote: post #99

yamtaddle wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've found it surprisingly low effort to get good enough at guitar and, in fact, piano, that you can start to see social rewards, i.e. people actually want you to play, at least a little. Meanwhile I put in more hours and had far more formal instruction at a woodwind than either of those combined and... yeah, nobody wanted to hear that shit, it sounds awful (cringe-inducing, even) unless you're excellent . Years of e…

Was mildly triggered by your comment at first, being a pianist, but on reflection you're right. The skill floor for the piano is objectively lower thanks to being percussive. But my god is it difficult trying to sing with a percussive instrument while also accompanying yourself with and extra 2-3 voices. Timbre, vibrato and dynamic control over a single note mean that people will pay to listen to a beautiful singer o…

I think a big part of it is you can sound good playing piano quietly. It's hard to play a woodwind quietly and sound good. Yes, the pros can certainly do it, but it's a difficult skill to master. They're instruments designed to project without electronic amplification.