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Kids and music lessons: why do many promising players quit early?

thewalrus.ca

101–110 of 260 posts

Re: Kids and music lessons: why do many promising players quit early?

#101

My piano teacher was telling me about some lady was 90 and still giving lessons. She said her ideal death would be to go while waiting for her next student, and the person who found her would be the one who never practices. Since I don't play anymore, and she moved away anyway, I have a more relaxed attitude about it. I also meet lots and lots of people who studied, but now don't play either. It really isn't that sat…

I think it is important to note that the music that was played by middle and lower class amateurs in the early part of the 20th century (and earlier) was more like This Land Is Your Land than anything as technically difficult as the Goldberg Variations. Group singing (and dancing) was an important component, and mistakes were not really that important.

I spent a bunch of time talking to my Dad who learned to play under those conditions. It is a real difference from the generations that have quality recording by technically proficient musicians easily available.

Re: Kids and music lessons: why do many promising players quit early?

#103
Everyone is talking about being forced into music as a kid, but I think another factor is the talent gap. Just like steroids messes with people's body image, hearing nothing but the best musicians on the planet perfectly quantized and auto tune means the gap between a beginner (or even intermediate) and all the music we hear is immense.

Music isn't as communal anymore unless you have a friend or family that plays. I find it difficult to find an on ramp to playing with people. I don't know what good enough is because all I've been hearing in every song since I was 5 has been "perfect".

Re: Kids and music lessons: why do many promising players quit early?

#104
Disclosure: I'm one of the survivors, as are both of my kids. I started classical cello lessons in 4th grade, and just kept going, though 50 years later I'm a jazz bassist. My kids started on string lessons, and are both good classical musicians today.

In my view there's no silver bullet that will reduce the attrition rate for kids learning to play music, and I think no reason to believe that classical lessons are even significantly better or worse than any other approach.

As mentioned in the article, being part of a musical family helps, but is not a silver bullet. The musician parents tend to be more laid back about it, more patient about progress, less focused on competition. Very few of them express an interest in their kids pursuing music careers, though it sometimes happens anyway. Most just talk about the lifelong enjoyment of music.

Every instrument has a unique learning curve. Yeah, the violin. Guitar and piano are no easier to play at a high level, but can at least produce a decent tone from the beginning.

One thing that might help a bit is starting kids younger, before they are old enough to be self conscious about sucking. Those kids also get chances to play with other kids, and everybody applauds.

I have no aspirations of a music career, but I do get paid to play, and my main band has a small but loyal following. If you have a day job, as I do, you can pick and choose among different aspects of the music business. For instance I have no interest in making or selling recordings, touring, or being famous. I do expect to play with fairly high caliber musicians.

Re: Kids and music lessons: why do many promising players quit early?

#105
post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You don't have to be a career rockstar to get personal satisfaction and enjoyment from playing instruments for yourself or with friends. When people quit as a child its really sad, because they deny themselves an opportunity for a lifelong hobby. Picking up the guitar again after I quit as a kid was the best thing I could do, but I still kick myself for not sticking through it all the years and all the potential expe…

I really hated to sound so grim... I've had some great experiences and I still do, nothing beats playing your music for crowds of people... The money is the problem. If you as a musician don't make it, there are others making it off of you. Scams are reampant. I just got an email from a fake Instagram account posing as a real journalist asking me for money for a feature in a big magazine... To tell you the truth it's…

Music is a great hobby and a terrible career.

I love playing mandolin, and i'm taking up fiddle now. Someday I hope to learn piano. It's is all in good fun.

My day job is programming. I'm lucky that I enjoy it as well, but there is only so much time I can write code in a day, and that is less than 8 hours (i'm glad for meetings for this reason, they prevent burn out) I get paid well for it.

Re: Kids and music lessons: why do many promising players quit early?

#106

My mom made me and both of my brothers take 9 years of piano lessons. Today, not one of us plays - I don't think any of us even has a keyboard in our houses. The reason for this is simply that we were never allowed to play the kind of music we liked . Which was, of course, rock. Or blues, or country. Or, really, anything with a beat. Nope; it was all classical all the time. And piano lessons were the only time we wer…

Yup, same with sports. "You're gonna thank me later" they said.

"You're gonna understand when you grow up" they said.

NOPE

Re: Kids and music lessons: why do many promising players quit early?

#107

"Some teachers find it’s their job to make students get better," Pappas says. "But what a teacher really needs to do is give their students the tools to make themselves better." In my opinion, both approaches are wrong. The job of a good teacher is to make learning fun. Once you enjoy practicing, skill follows automatically.

I think this is deeply wrong, and it externalizes the impetus for practice. I'm good at math not because some teacher in my youth made it fun. I'm good at math because I found the pedagogy and practice of it fun in and of itself. In fact, I've almost always found every attempt to "make math fun" to invariably be devoid of any real math content. If you don't enjoy the practice and struggle and discovery, and get motiv…

Math can pay the bills, or at least is. A prerequisite for most great jobs.

Most people will never make money with music, but they can enjoy playing it. As such music should be taught as fun first, and then the rest follows if and when needed.

Re: Kids and music lessons: why do many promising players quit early?

#108

I've been teaching beginning guitar lessons for about seven years. Guitar is a little different in that, outside of classical guitar, there's very little traditional pedagogy, but from experience I think these things are generally true about most instruments. 1. When you start learning you sound terrible... for a long time. It's very difficult to stay motivated when you can hear your problems. 2. It's very difficult…

I can relate a lot to what you said. I practice piano (jazz improvisation), and I have mix of love and hate with practicing. You basically spent lots of energy for little to no improvement at all lol, playing scales, arpeggios, etc. And if you stay like 1 month without practicing you waste a lot of time trying to go back where you stopped. It's like trying to go up an escalator that's going down, if you stop you come…

> It's like trying to go up an escalator that's going down, if you stop you come back to point 0.

I think it's more nuanced than that, you don't go back to zero, the decay is exponential so the drop is most brutal at the front of the curve:

My experience with skill acquisition, you have to hit a checkpoint and bed it in while in a learning phase.

Eg Now that I grok cycling/skiing/wakeboarding, I can take years away from those and will be able to find my way around without starting from scratch.

Even after a decade of not speaking Mandarin, I decayed massively but didn't go back to zero even though I really had lost so much vocab and fluency.

My takeaway after really honing the skill of learning itself is that it's most efficient to learn in super intensive bursts, especially if you don't expect to be able to keep up frequent practice.

Skiing is probably the most relatable skill that many people learn but rarely practice. Living in a foreign country and learning the local language is another example.

Bringing it back to music, after taking almost 8 years out of the piano my scales didn't really drop below 150bpm for quavers but I was able to get to 250+ in a single focused practise session. Skill reacquisition is very fast, which is why weight lifters always report that getting back to PB is considerably faster second time around (weightlifting low-key being the skill of muscle recruitment)

Re: Kids and music lessons: why do many promising players quit early?

#109

I've been teaching beginning guitar lessons for about seven years. Guitar is a little different in that, outside of classical guitar, there's very little traditional pedagogy, but from experience I think these things are generally true about most instruments. 1. When you start learning you sound terrible... for a long time. It's very difficult to stay motivated when you can hear your problems. 2. It's very difficult…

Early learning should be focused on musicality and improvisation, not refined performance technique. Historically, even music in the so-called 'classical' tradition was mostly improvised. It's only in the late 19th century or so that technically virtuosic-performance playing of old repertoire became the only known standard of quality; but what those pieces of music were intended for originally was something quite dif…

Perhaps it's because it's how I taught myself, but I am in the camp that chords should be taught first (guitar or piano).

Notes, reading sheet music can come much later (if at all).

Two or three chords on either the guitar or piano is an easy start and will open up a world of songs for the learner.

I watched my daughters take lessons and tediously work through reading sheet music, learning scales... I thought it was no wonder they hated it, and no longer play an instrument.

Re: Kids and music lessons: why do many promising players quit early?

#110
I have heard it said that most people that have a life-long love of playing music can either play by ear, or sight read. We started our sprout on Suzuki-method violin at an early age, and I learned a whooooole lot about how to teach skills (not just music) from that. We had an excellent violin teacher. First of all, it has to be fun. It is more important that practice be fun every day, than it cover all the assigned material every day. It must be kept fun. And incremental -- the teaching points are introduced gradually so that nothing is frustratingly difficult. Just keep having fun every day, and emphasize playing well and correctly, not on racing through more material for the sake of some kind of false progress.

The early stages of Suzuki-method, of course, emphasize ear training. When the kid reaches 6 or so (early reading stage), they also start to learn to read music -- and by then they are likely playing Vivaldi concertos, learned by ear, so ear-training is well established. Eventually my kiddo also learned to sight-read.

But throughout -- it has to be kept fun. Yeah a constant diet of classical is great for teaching skills, but you want to use those skills on fun stuff. The lucky thing about violin is the huge body of traditional fiddle music from several cultures, and also jazz fiddle. And the local Suzuki teachers put on a weekend fiddle camp every year that was hugely fun as a camp experience over-and-above the music activities.

Anyway, kid developed life-long love of music, still plays pretty much every day, after coming home from day-job as an engineer.

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