Tesla Autopilot Almost Steers Model 3 into Oncoming Train • Hacker News Board

Re: Tesla Autopilot Almost Steers Model 3 into Oncoming Train

#111

Post by petilon » Mon, Jul 04, 2022, 2:39 PM UTC

belter wrote: post #105

petilon wrote: post #77

Meanwhile Cruise just obtained permission to charge passengers for driverless rides in San Francisco [1]. Cruise has been cleared to charge for rides in vehicles that will have no other people in them besides the passengers. There will be no back-up human driver present to take control if something goes wrong. Why is Tesla so far behind? Tesla is generating these autopilot mishap news on such a regular basis that it…

Presumably, these regulators are the same, that allowed this Tesla very alpha software to be tested on public roads. Also from your own reference it does not seem like Cruise capabilities are much above an amusement park level toy ride: "...The regulators issued the permit despite safety concerns arising from Cruise's inability to pick up and drop off passengers at the curb in its autonomous taxis, requiring the vehi…

Yeah but how often do you see negative stories about Cruise and Waymo? Where lives are endangered? The story about cars stopped in the middle of a street doesn't count since lives were not in danger.

Re: Tesla Autopilot Almost Steers Model 3 into Oncoming Train

#112

Post by rascul » Mon, Jul 04, 2022, 2:40 PM UTC

jaxn wrote: post #45

kypro wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I guess to pay devil's advocate here the question you need to be asking is if it would still be worth it if a loved one was driving your Tesla and they crashed because your Tesla drove them into a train. Even if Tesla Autopilot was significantly safer than a human driver I know I would still struggle knowing a love one died because the AI in my car decide to make a really stupid (albeit unlikely) decision. Right or w…

I think of it in terms of I am still piloting the vehicle, but FSD is executing the maneuvers. This means that I am able to focus on the bigger picture (looking further forward, paying attention to what is going on in all lanes, etc). I am a MUCH safer driver with autopilot/FSD than without. So, to your devil's advocate, I am sure I would blame myself if my family member died while driving my car no matter what the c…

> This means that I am able to focus on the bigger picture (looking further forward, paying attention to what is going on in all lanes, etc).

It seems dangerous to drive without doing that.

Re: Tesla Autopilot Almost Steers Model 3 into Oncoming Train

#113

Post by skellera » Mon, Jul 04, 2022, 2:40 PM UTC

petilon wrote: post #77

Meanwhile Cruise just obtained permission to charge passengers for driverless rides in San Francisco [1]. Cruise has been cleared to charge for rides in vehicles that will have no other people in them besides the passengers. There will be no back-up human driver present to take control if something goes wrong. Why is Tesla so far behind? Tesla is generating these autopilot mishap news on such a regular basis that it…

All about where it works. Geofenced solutions are much easier.

I wouldn’t say they’re behind, just solving a different problem. Should they have focused on inside city and highway driving? Probably. Would’ve had a good product sooner. Even if they don’t win this whole thing, they pushed the entire industry in a good direction.

Re: Tesla Autopilot Almost Steers Model 3 into Oncoming Train

#114

Post by js2 » Mon, Jul 04, 2022, 2:40 PM UTC

aidenn0 wrote: post #100

js2 wrote: post #76

Unprotected left turns are one of the most dangerous situations in driving. I consider myself a competent driver, haven't been in an accident in over two decades, and I barely trust myself to make an unprotected left. I've heard that UPS (used to?) ban their drivers from making unprotected lefts. Not in a million years would I ever trust this maneuver to software. Humans screw it up all the time: https://old.reddit.c…

In theory, an unprotected left should be easier for software than a human. The issue with them for humans is that there are too many places traffic (and pedestrians) can come from. For computers, once you solve the problem of seeing traffic coming from one direction, Nx the computing power can see traffic coming from N directions. The problem Tesla has is that they still can't do basic things reliably enough

Human drivers are also impatient, distractible, poor at judging speed, and have visual blind spots. But a big problem with a lot of unprotected lefts is poor visibility of oncoming traffic. The car just isn't in a great position to see down the road. Tesla has to deal with that same limitation.

Re: Tesla Autopilot Almost Steers Model 3 into Oncoming Train

#115

Post by shagie » Mon, Jul 04, 2022, 2:40 PM UTC

kadoban wrote: post #83

throwaway5959 wrote: post #27

Why is the US allowing this beta testing of a feature that impacts safety to continue? There have to be at least dozens of documented cases of this being unsafe. Have regulators just given up or are they that incompetent?

Part of it is that government regulation of new things is slow. Part of it is that Congress is barely functional, at best. Part of it is that Republicans are anti- the government doing anything useful. California has been making some noises about cracking down on this, there was a story on HN a few weeks back. My sense is that some people will need to die in a sensational way, that happens to go viral, before anythin…

(politicsish)

The crafting of regulations (not laws) and their implementation is the domain of the agencies under the executive branch. This is where the scientists and researchers are hired - neither the legislative nor judicial branches routinely employ them.

The funding of these agencies has been consistently cut back over the past decades resulting in a slower moving body and one that is not as able to employ experts in the various domains who understand that technology and issues as part of a career.

Additionally, the recent Supreme Court decision against the EPA further makes it difficult for the agencies to make and enforce those regulations. NPR Marketplace : Today’s Supreme Court decision is about more than the EPA- https://www.marketplace.org/shows/marketplace/todays-supreme... gets into the SCOTUS ruling and how it attacking what is called the administrative state. https://www.npr.org/2022/01/30/1076844670/supreme-court-just... also goes into the rolling back of the administrative ability of the executive branch.

Re: Tesla Autopilot Almost Steers Model 3 into Oncoming Train

#116

Post by dmitriid » Mon, Jul 04, 2022, 2:41 PM UTC

petilon wrote: post #98

tenuousemphasis wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The answer is that Tesla is creating a general solution, whereas Waymo and Cruise and targeting specific geographical areas which they can map precisely.

Waymo and Cruise are also using more expensive, bulky and unsightly hardware, including lidar. They are starting at the top, with a solution that works, then working their way down. Their approach is confidence-inspiring. Tesla is starting at the bottom. The frequent mishap stories coming from Tesla does not inspire confidence.

You can also start at the bottom like most European manufacturers, and slowly build up to autonomous driving.

That is, start with collision warning, lane assist etc. Boom, you have a Volvo that drives itself on a highway, and requires driver assistance elsewhere.

Re: Tesla Autopilot Almost Steers Model 3 into Oncoming Train

#117

Post by cloutchaser » Mon, Jul 04, 2022, 2:41 PM UTC

spaceman_2020 wrote: post #96

deng wrote: post #80

Actually, that steering into the oncoming train is just one of several severe instances in that video: * Almost driving right into a barrier because road is closed: https://youtu.be/yxX4tDkSc_g?t=426 * Choosing the wrong lane and getting confused: https://youtu.be/yxX4tDkSc_g?t=666 * Trying to run a red light, right into traffic: https://youtu.be/yxX4tDkSc_g?t=732 * Stopping in the middle of an intersection without r…

I just can’t understand why you’d give up control to a system that’s clearly still in beta. The cost of failure is way too high to take the risk.

The whole point should be you don't. You are giving live feedback to the most advanced ML learning system ever (probably). Which hopefully in a few years will actually work.

You are not (currently) using an autonomous car. If you think so you are an idiot.

Re: Tesla Autopilot Almost Steers Model 3 into Oncoming Train

#118

Post by edgefield » Mon, Jul 04, 2022, 2:41 PM UTC

verisimi wrote: post #103

deng wrote: post #80

Actually, that steering into the oncoming train is just one of several severe instances in that video: * Almost driving right into a barrier because road is closed: https://youtu.be/yxX4tDkSc_g?t=426 * Choosing the wrong lane and getting confused: https://youtu.be/yxX4tDkSc_g?t=666 * Trying to run a red light, right into traffic: https://youtu.be/yxX4tDkSc_g?t=732 * Stopping in the middle of an intersection without r…

Jeez.. everyone's a critic... Tesla's got this! /s

Indeed. /$

Re: Tesla Autopilot Almost Steers Model 3 into Oncoming Train

#119

Post by mellavora » Mon, Jul 04, 2022, 2:41 PM UTC

jaxn wrote: post #45

kypro wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I guess to pay devil's advocate here the question you need to be asking is if it would still be worth it if a loved one was driving your Tesla and they crashed because your Tesla drove them into a train. Even if Tesla Autopilot was significantly safer than a human driver I know I would still struggle knowing a love one died because the AI in my car decide to make a really stupid (albeit unlikely) decision. Right or w…

I think of it in terms of I am still piloting the vehicle, but FSD is executing the maneuvers. This means that I am able to focus on the bigger picture (looking further forward, paying attention to what is going on in all lanes, etc). I am a MUCH safer driver with autopilot/FSD than without. So, to your devil's advocate, I am sure I would blame myself if my family member died while driving my car no matter what the c…

> I am still piloting the vehicle, but FSD is executing the maneuvers.

Look, there are some things I really like about your reply, and I applaud your approach to this.

My question is this: If you are the pilot, how do you communicate with the FSD to have it execute the maneuvers? What is the command interface? What is the level of "manouver" ("drive to the grocery store" vs "angle the front wheels 7 degrees to the left to initiate a left turn")

> "there were a couple of times I expected [the loaner] to stop and it didn't."

So these times, in your car, are circumstances where you expect the car to stop. Did you (as the pilot) tell the car to execute the stopping manouver?

> Your #1 job, and the thing that can kill you, is thinking that autopilot is engaged when it isn't and running a red light "

What if it is engaged and still decides to run a red light? Or to suddenly brake to a full stop on a highway so you get rear-ended?

Re: Tesla Autopilot Almost Steers Model 3 into Oncoming Train

#120

Post by curiousgal » Mon, Jul 04, 2022, 2:41 PM UTC

I'm just sitting here vexed about the mislabeling of a tram as a train. Like the guy himself called it a tram but then used the word train in the title. If you have to lie to get appint across it just takes away from that point, valid as it may be.