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Mental illness, mass shootings, and the politics of American firearms (2015)

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Re: Mental illness, mass shootings, and the politics of American firearms (2015)

#111

Post by akomtu »

bogwog wrote: post #91
whatever1 wrote: post #6

We need gory pictures from the executed kids everywhere. Until we understand the magnitude of the horror. I look at my FB and see proud gun owners cracking jokes and I really cannot comprehend how it is possible.

The way I see it is this: if you're against gun control, you're either A) Devoid of empathy B) A lunatic Because if one of your kids/loved ones is killed in a mass shooting like this, and you're still against gun control, then you're a lunatic. If not, then you're just an asshole with zero sympathy for the families that have lost loved ones. I don't know about you, but regardless of the politics, I would not want any…

These A & B is a cheap rhetorical trick, called the false dichotomy, because there's also C which is "you understand that guns save many more people from criminals". On the one side there are 5 thousand of innocents shot every year. On the other side there are 500 thousand of would-be killed and would-be raped innocents who used guns to defend themselves. By banning guns you're playing a demi-god who is deciding which of the two groups of innocents are less worthy, a demi-god who doesn't even care to consider all the facts and instead submits to emotions.

Re: Mental illness, mass shootings, and the politics of American firearms (2015)

#112

Post by Wowfunhappy »

settrans wrote: post #108
johnmarcus wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> They’re (school shootings) not even a blip on the radar screen in the overall “gun deaths” problem. LOL. Um, IDK, some people might disagree. Some people - like those innocent childrens' parents - might think it's like 99% of the problem.

Surely then, we ought to ban pools, wall off access to the beaches and lakes, and generally prohibit human contact with water, as drowning is 100x more likely to kill than school shootings. And any parents of innocent children who have drowned are no doubt incensed by the outcome!

While we don't ban beaches and pools, we do require them to be monitored by trained lifeguards! I think we should have reasonable safeguards in place for guns as well.

Re: Mental illness, mass shootings, and the politics of American firearms (2015)

#113

Post by belorn »

freediver wrote: post #2

I sincerely hope this does not descend into a flamewar. We can't have discussion about this in an intellectually stimulating way in congress, we can't have this discussion in the media, we obviously can't have this discussion on social media so HN is the last bastion of hope. It is a multi-faceted problem with a lot of complexity. The fact stands that USA has a school shooting problem [1] unlike any other country in…

If we look at the data we can see a significant increase in the last decade, and the mass school shootings are almost exclusively a modern concept from the last 30 years. A question one might ask is then what changed in the USA during those years to trigger this. In addition those factors should be compared to other nations.

We should also look at what prevent school shootings. What in society might protect against a kid going to school with the intention to harm staff or students? A fatal event only occur if there is enough risk factors and not enough protective factors.

My own thoughts go to increase stress in schools as one factor, social media/news focus, increasingly larger difference in social class among students (source for social tensions), a lack of trained psychologists at schools, a culture that focus on individualism. Out of those, tensions from social class would be my primary suspect when asking why say Serbia has less school shootings than the USA.

Re: Mental illness, mass shootings, and the politics of American firearms (2015)

#114

Post by juanani »

freediver wrote: post #2

I sincerely hope this does not descend into a flamewar. We can't have discussion about this in an intellectually stimulating way in congress, we can't have this discussion in the media, we obviously can't have this discussion on social media so HN is the last bastion of hope. It is a multi-faceted problem with a lot of complexity. The fact stands that USA has a school shooting problem [1] unlike any other country in…

No post body was provided.

Re: Mental illness, mass shootings, and the politics of American firearms (2015)

#115

Post by 2OEH8eoCRo0 »

krapp wrote: post #94
2OEH8eoCRo0 wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Take social media activity into account during background checks. Increase the age to purchase to 21. 1 month waiting period. I'm a gun owner btw. I also wonder what interesting things would happen if in order to own a gun you must drill with a militia.

>I also wonder what interesting things would happen if in order to own a gun you must drill with a militia. Given the nature of American militias, likely white supremacist radicalization.

If everyone must? I think the opposite. Militias would become less white and less radical.

Re: Mental illness, mass shootings, and the politics of American firearms (2015)

#116

Post by heavyset_go »

dane-pgp wrote: post #65
heavyset_go wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Felt the same way about COVID and war. If cameras were allowed into ICUs, and into war-torn areas, and not just the carefully choreographed media tours the military sometimes allows these days, things would change.

Do we want policy decisions to be influenced by which side can produce the most emotive imagery, though? This is just "think of the children" with more steps. For example, if you're going to highlight the scenes from inside ICUs, why not also show images of children crying when receiving their COVID jabs?

I think the public should be afforded the opportunity to see the real effects and results of the policies they enact. Propagandists are going to propagandize whether the truth is out there or not, and I think it is better to allow for the truth to prevail at all, than to have it shrouded and obfuscated because of fears that it might spook some.

Re: Mental illness, mass shootings, and the politics of American firearms (2015)

#117

Post by jka »

bifrost wrote: post #80
condercet wrote: post #68

It is not fair to place the blame for this epidemic of violence squarely on those suffering from mental health issues. Mental health issues are distributed globally, but the gun violence problem is not. People who suffer from mental health issues are tremendously more likely to be victims of violence, rather than the perpetrators. These individuals already suffer from tremendous discrimination and hardships in their…

If we're going to talk numbers - most gun deaths involve gang/drug activities. The real numbers once you remove suicide and gangs all point to mental illness and DV/Violent individuals.

Could you add a reference to some statistics around that?

I found this, although it mostly contradicts your claim (with the exception of gun deaths due to assaults on people in the age range 5-34): https://web.archive.org/web/20180829034947/https://injuryfac...

Re: Mental illness, mass shootings, and the politics of American firearms (2015)

#118

Post by taeric »

bifrost wrote: post #87
krnlpnc wrote: post #79

What if guns were treated similarly to cars? Mandatory training, License w/ renewals, registration w/ renewals, insurance mandatory, yearly inspection mandatory, etc. Personally I feel people should be able to defend themselves while at the same time deterred from stockpiling and accessing mass casualty capable arms.

What you are suggesting is illegal. Its illegal to license a right. We shouldn't penalize the hundreds of millions of legal gun owners in the US because we're unable to catch psychopaths before they kill people.

This feels silly. Explosives are general arms for an armed service. Good luck stockpiling c4. Or having a military vehicle. Cannons that can shoot depleted uranium? Surface to air missiles? All arms that would be needed to fend off a real threat.

So the idea that guns are special is idiotic. You can already get in trouble for using a gun with too many rounds when bird hunting. Is that actually illegal?

Re: Mental illness, mass shootings, and the politics of American firearms (2015)

#119

Post by freediver »

mberning wrote: post #62
KerrAvon wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It is a multi-faceted problem with a lot of complexity It really is not. There are too many guns available, too easily obtained, to too many citizens who have not been properly indoctrinated with a sense of civic responsibility, let alone trained in the proper ways to handle a gun. The answer isn't to throw more guns at the problem or to blame inadequate mental health facilities. It is to reduce gun availability. A…

That’s like saying food availability is a core component in the obesity epidemic. I suppose there is some truth in that, but the solution it suggests is wholly inadequate.

Very interesting angle. Where does the analogy take us?

Re: Mental illness, mass shootings, and the politics of American firearms (2015)

#120

Post by taeric »

buscoquadnary wrote: post #105
yedava wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it is possible to entertain the notion that these laws are not some inviolable physical property of the Universe, but something we made up and so are also something we can undo.

In this case in the US it requires a constitutional amendment. Although in all honesty even if an amendment did occur the faith and trust in the government at this point is so low it would probably just encourage rather than convince gun owners.

Strictly, it doesn't. A supreme court decision that gave a new interpretation of arms would be needed. But, as stated elsewhere, many arms and guns are already regulated. Quite heavily.
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