Earlier quoted context omitted.
It’s also not very intensive, especially since video decode usually runs on the GPU. (Or it should - browsers are not always very good about this but the tools are there, they just don’t want to pay licensing fees to use them.) I always cringe a bit when people insist they need 6 cores “so they can have discord and Spotify open while they game”. People don’t generally have a very good intuitive sense of just how litt…
Sure chat apps and video playback are light, but what isn't is browsing the web. Web browsing has become a heavy task. If you tried to install a browser and then use it today on a core 2 duo, you'd have a very bad time. And everyone browses the web, usually quite a bit.
Intel's New Chimera: Alder Lake
111–120 of 253 posts
Re: Intel's New Chimera: Alder Lake
#112For a desktop or mobile processor this might make sense, but many hosting providers sell dedicated hardware with desktop processors to be used in a server environment. (E.g. Hetzner https://www.hetzner.com/dedicated-rootserver/ex100 ) So the provider can save energy and make sense of this, but customers won't notice the energy savings in their pocket and they only notice that they can only use 8 cores. When I tested…
Generally speaking trying to run code that shares memory between P and E cores only results in pain. It could work but the software needs to be designed for it.
Re: Intel's New Chimera: Alder Lake
#113Earlier quoted context omitted.
> Playing a video and writing a document is something that can be trivially done on a core2duo era processor, or the modern equivalent of a low-end dual-core nuc with e-cores (atom cores) like a J4005. You don’t even need performance cores for that. Playing a video and editing a document, sure. But change that to being on a video call and having a few moderately intensive web apps open (say Gmail, Google Docs and som…
I do some work on my ThinkPad t420s. It's about a decade old now. I understand it's anecdotal but fwiw. Note that it's plugged into Ethernet. I do ALL my work on a t25 which is just about 5 years old now. This includes daily calls with dozens of video participants (ms teams and WebEx mostly) while I have chrome and Firefox open with multiple tabs including outlook and Gmail and slack, couple of MS words, couple of Po…
The real question is, are you one of the video participants too? Or are you just watching others but not sending any video of your own?
Re: Intel's New Chimera: Alder Lake
#114Earlier quoted context omitted.
In my analysis, only Gracemont (Atom 5th gen) is good and that’s for two reasons: 1. It has roughly the IPC of Skylake. 2. It’s the first Atom with AVX2. Even in 2021 Intel released brand new Atom cores without AVX2, which was introduced with Haswell (Haswell New Instructions). And in most tests, merely enabling AVX2 will yield 10% higher performance. That’s why Clear Linux has higher performance as they’re all tuned…
No, it’s really doing OK for what it is. A Xeon Bronze 3104 is a 6C6T 1.7 GHz Skylake that gets a 88W tdp and a J5005 is a 2.8 GHz 4C4T Goldmont running in 15W. That is 10.7 core-cycle-units for the Skylake and 11.2 core-cycle-units for the atom. The Skylake is not really all that far ahead - maybe 50% ahead on average in this suite, so the J5005 is running about 2/3 of Skylake IPC. I assume c-ray is probably using A…
Re: Intel's New Chimera: Alder Lake
#115Earlier quoted context omitted.
AMD beats them because they are a process node ahead. Dunno why every comment implies there's some design gap that leads to M1 or AMD being more powerful or efficient. It's 90% the process node. There is no magic design sauce that makes those chips better. The big/little design change did seem to improve performance quite a bit for Intel, even using the same manufacturing node as before
I don’t completely agree. A MacBook Air M1 is 25% faster than a 10th generation Intel 10700K, running the same code full of floating point instructions and matrices. It’s not a simple matter of process node. The same MacBook Air can do hour long Skype video calls with ~9% charge consumption, with no discernible heat difference on the body too. M1 is a different beast.
Re: Intel's New Chimera: Alder Lake
#116Earlier quoted context omitted.
It’s also not very intensive, especially since video decode usually runs on the GPU. (Or it should - browsers are not always very good about this but the tools are there, they just don’t want to pay licensing fees to use them.) I always cringe a bit when people insist they need 6 cores “so they can have discord and Spotify open while they game”. People don’t generally have a very good intuitive sense of just how litt…
> Playing a video and writing a document is something that can be trivially done on a core2duo era processor, or the modern equivalent of a low-end dual-core nuc with e-cores (atom cores) like a J4005. You don’t even need performance cores for that. Playing a video and editing a document, sure. But change that to being on a video call and having a few moderately intensive web apps open (say Gmail, Google Docs and som…
I’m just using Nehalem and Conroe as a touchstone that people understand in terms of cpu performance. That is what you get in general cpu performance, but it’s also got better media support and crypto acceleration and so on, so it’s more usable today. Actually a closer look at the numbers puts it just below Sandy Bridge i5 actually.
AMD cpu users (non-apu) and RX 6500/6400 owners obviously need to look elsewhere however. NVIDIA’s 1030 chips are ancient pascal based crap but AMD dropping encoder support on a chip designed during the pandemic era of work-from-home is a bit tone-deaf.
(Yes, 6500 and 6400 were designed during the pandemic, the architecture took longer to develop but 6500 wasn’t the lead ship in its architecture, and taping out a new chip configuration takes much less time than designing a whole architecture from scratch… AMD definitely knew it would be used as a desktop chip too. It was a deliberate space-saving move in the face of their wafer shortages, not something they got blindsided by.)
Re: Intel's New Chimera: Alder Lake
#117Earlier quoted context omitted.
As an aside, I don't think even the early Atom processors were as terrible as their reputation branded them. I had an early Atom-based netbook, and it was totally acceptable... if running Linux (or XP). Kind of like the "Vista debacle", I think Atoms were just unsuited to running Windows 7. Maybe I'm too forgiving or forgetful, but I used that netbook for many years, and it wasn't that slow with Linux. (7 was pretty…
I had an eeepc 901, used it for years with linux. First it ran gnome 2 I think, then xfce. Perfectly useful little machine. In later years I switched to lxde to eke a little more out of a little less. In that form factor, and costing what it did, I was massively impressed.
Lxde is great though and sure id believe that. I ran lxde on a single-core Phenom low power thing and with a SSD it was marginally usable even with that complete shit hardware.
Re: Intel's New Chimera: Alder Lake
#118Re: Intel's New Chimera: Alder Lake
#119Earlier quoted context omitted.
No, it’s really doing OK for what it is. A Xeon Bronze 3104 is a 6C6T 1.7 GHz Skylake that gets a 88W tdp and a J5005 is a 2.8 GHz 4C4T Goldmont running in 15W. That is 10.7 core-cycle-units for the Skylake and 11.2 core-cycle-units for the atom. The Skylake is not really all that far ahead - maybe 50% ahead on average in this suite, so the J5005 is running about 2/3 of Skylake IPC. I assume c-ray is probably using A…
Userbenchmark.com is worse than useless. It’s straight up lies.
The commentary UserBenchmark provides is terrible and the “effective speed” composite rating is terrible. The actual int/fp benchmarks are perfectly fine and actually tend to be more reflective of actual benchmarks like spec than Passmark has been, in my experience. Passmark does sometimes have oddities, UserBenchmark hasn’t.
But bandwagoners can’t accept that, they just see “UserBenchmark” and their vision goes red and they shake as they struggle to type out “nobody should EVER use UserBenchmark”. I do apologize for being colorful but that’s how it is.
Like I said, there’s a reason I didn’t link it, no matter what you say, there’s a significant number of people who just can’t act mature enough to handle separating the data from the editorial positions.
It would be nice if we had good Spec2017 benchmarks for everything. I would prefer that. If you want broad comparisons of completely obscure hardware “what does this ultra-budget Xeon Bronze look like against this atom vs a desktop processor from 2007” the options are limited. You have Passmark, you have UserBenchmark, and you have Geekbench. And people still lose their shit over Geekbench too.
Even Passmark has only seen that xeon a total of 14 times.
The situation is even worse for GPUs where UserBenchmark is the only reasonably broad benchmark database available for truly ancient stuff that 3Dmark won’t run on. What if you want to compare a GTX 9800 to a Vega 7 and a Intel HD 605? It’s UserBenchmark or nothing. It sucks but it is what it is, and people need to just grow up. Including the owner of UserBenchmark. But the effective speed is just a composite benchmark and he’s never actually tampered the underlying int/fp benchmarks.
Phoronix is also not particularly good and has some serious methodological problems too. But nobody else does linux benchmarks apart from STH and Phoronix, and Phoronix pumps them out like crazy and just survives on volume even if his testing is kinda shit. Look at his “Linux games” test and he’s mixing multiple resolutions into a single result set, including the same game multiple times, etc, and then pulling out averages, everything is framerates and not frametimes (meaning, averages and not minimums), etc. From what I’ve heard his application testing isn’t any better but I don’t remember specifics.
Just goes to show: you can be scum and put out good data, and you can be a pillar of the community and put out bad data. Reddit tone police don’t change that.
There is a awful lot of incredibly useful data in the world that came from people who are extremely disagreeable on a personal level - or much, much worse.
Re: Intel's New Chimera: Alder Lake
#120Earlier quoted context omitted.
I understand even less why Intel has been creating numerous AVX extensions (1,2 and 512) instead of focusing on a single programmable variable vector length extension that would not require the addition of new opcodes every time the CPU supported maximum vector length increased. It has been clear for a long while that the vector length was going to gradually increase every few years to support new data processing req…
Variable-width is the new hotness but it doesn’t work well on all tasks. If your task is fixed-width, or the algorithm changes based on task width, you kind of need to know the hardware width. And shuffling, perjuring, swizzling, and bit-shifting don’t translate very well to these approaches. Nor is there really an easy way to operate these in a fixed-width mode. https://gist.github.com/zingaburga/805669eb891c820bd22…
Hardly new. The VAX 6000 Series Vector Processor supported variable length vectors with up to 64 vector elements:
With the VAX, the vector register has a maximum length of 64 elements. Each element can contain up to 64 bits. The elements used can be enabled or disabled by setting bits in a Vector Mask Register (VMR). The programmer usually determines the range, or limits the number of elements used through a Vector Length Register (VLR) (see Figure 1–2). This range can vary, for example, from 0 to 64 elements. Of course, if the vector length = 0, no vector elements will be processed.
I am pretty sure the concept predates the VAX days and might go as far back as the CDC STAR-100 from 1974 and potentially also the Cray-2, but I have had a trouble locating authoritative sources on the details of the ISA of the former.