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Systemd 250 Released

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Re: Systemd 250 Released

#111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> And let me ask a question, if systemd is crap, why does every major distro use it? If Big Mac is a crappy food, why billions are served with it?

Or maybe you should questions yourself as to why you are so angry about what others like

If others enjoy eating garbage, does that obligate me to like it, too?

Re: Systemd 250 Released

#112
post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Cron has all these features: - single place control: crontab -e - additional constraints: systemctl status && scirpt.sh - randomize startup times: sleep ${RANDOM:0:MAX} && script.sh The nice thing is that it integrates with the existing infrastructure (shell scripts). This means you don't have to add code to cron to add features. I agree with the 10s of files in /etc/cron.daily, etc. But those are there for convenien…

There are some cool features in systemd that are not easy to do in cron. Example: I use restic backup. One timer runs every 24h or on the next boot if there where more than 24h since the last backup as this is a laptop. Also it waits some random amount so that not all script run at the same time after boot. If a backup fails (eg remote server down) it retires every 15min, but no more than one hour before I get an Mai…

Redhat made the scripting for you. I don't think it's that complicated of a script (although it would be easier with a retry command)

    sleep $random
    for i in 1 2 3 4; do
      backup && exit 0
      sleep 15m
    done
    logger "backup failed"
    exit 1

add script to @startup in crontab or whatever they use. You can use another wrapper that only execute it if the backup is newer than now-24h. Backup could even be remote and you could track it by touching a file in /var

Yes systemd might be slightly easier, but that's because they put a lot of money into systemd, not because systemd is a better architecture. It's nice that they open sourced it (although it does give them a competitive edge), but we can't act like what used to be there isn't as good.

Someone could have packaged utility wrapper scripts in much less time than it did to add those features to systemd, and these wrapper script would be more widely usable (by init scripts, cronjobs, etc)

Re: Systemd 250 Released

#113
post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is so much truth to what you say. I used Linux exclusively from January 2000 until April 2012. A lot has changed in that time, but out of all the changes the three I'm most thankful for are: (1) Xorg replacing XFree86 and making video "just work" (2) Pulse Audio replacing OSS and making audio "just work" (3) systemd replacing the dog's breakfast of scripting madness each distro built from scratch instead of col…

I don't know about (2). Alsa "just worked" when pulse audio was released and PA did not "just work" for like 8 years after the first release. Seems like software history revisionism to me.

Consider me in the same camp. When I set up audio on my linux pc back in the day, the only thing I had to do was enable the alsa daemon to restore volume levels at boot and everything just worked. Then later Pulsaudio was kinda forced on me and I didn't (and still don't) understand why it was needed, it was something about allow multiple applications outputting audio at the same time but that worked just fine with alsa? Plus it didn't work well: under load audio would stutter which was extremely annoying as I listened to music quite frequently while working on my computer, a problem I did not have with alsa. So there I was with a shiny AMD Athlon 64 3500+ that couldn't even play mp3's straight.

Re: Systemd 250 Released

#114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What is it intended for? Certainly not large scale user groups backed by an LDAP server, as those would have consistent uid/gid so setting everything to be owned by nobody wouldn't make sense technically... What is the use case?

Portable home directories. Think pen drives.

In a cloud setting, I guess having user /home dirs on separate volumes from the root disk and having them relocatable is a reasonable analogue. The real issue is that much like the pen drive thing, absolutely no-one actually does this.

Re: Systemd 250 Released

#116
post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As someone who has learned Linux/Unix just the past few months using a systemd based distro, I find it a breeze to use. Great documentation, FOSS, and really easy to pick up. I just don’t understand why there is so much dislike thrown around when that energy can be focused elsewhere on truly bad behavior/software. And from my understanding, there are distros out there that don’t use systemd for those who dislike it t…

Systemd by itself is alright, the problem for me is the larger movement from "Linux is about choice" to tightly integrated, opinionated tools. Examples: - Gnome started to depend on systemd features. Now non-systemd systems become second class citizens. - You used to be able to freely swap out window managers, taskbars, and so on, because everything was working with common standards. In the modern world, everything i…

Linux has never been about choice. There was choice because no two people could agree on a set of protocols and standards. And slowly we're converging on a small set of decent (not perfect!) ideas volunteers can focus their efforts on. I honestly hope the choice meme dies because it is so toxic.

My Linux workstation and servers are not something I want to tinker with, I want solidity and stability and a fragmented user space ecosystem is not the solution.

Re: Systemd 250 Released

#117
post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is so much truth to what you say. I used Linux exclusively from January 2000 until April 2012. A lot has changed in that time, but out of all the changes the three I'm most thankful for are: (1) Xorg replacing XFree86 and making video "just work" (2) Pulse Audio replacing OSS and making audio "just work" (3) systemd replacing the dog's breakfast of scripting madness each distro built from scratch instead of col…

I don't know about (2). Alsa "just worked" when pulse audio was released and PA did not "just work" for like 8 years after the first release. Seems like software history revisionism to me.

Alsa just worked but had limitations. Some apps grabbed sound and you could not play sounds from other apps. Often, one app could play sound at a time. It depended on whether your sound card could handle several streams IIRC. Each major desktop environment had its own sound server to work around these limitations (KDE's aRts, Gnome's ESD).

PulseAudio let us have a common stack instead. There were bugs (PulseAudio was probably a bit buggy at first, and also hit audio driver bugs because of the new ways of using them). The transition was rough and PulseAudio is not perfect too but is it there for reasons and solves many issues.

Now it is being replaced by PipeWire, probably for the best (more efficient, can replace JACK too, making sound management much easier on Linux), but PipeWire leverages experience from PulseAudio.

I lived the transition to PulseAudio and it went well for me and probably a lot (the majority?) of people. Some things could probably have been handled better, especially the (too early?) transition. I think PulseAudio still is/was a good thing.

Re: Systemd 250 Released

#118
post #47

Work hard and solve a big, complex set of problems. Solve them well. Offer the solution as free open source. Work some more to offer extra functionality and fix the bugs. Become the internet's villain. Come up with a commercial solution to a simple problem. Ex: file sharing or password management. Make it slow, insecure, privacy violating, lose people's data. Make millions, become a hero.

There is so much truth to what you say. I used Linux exclusively from January 2000 until April 2012. A lot has changed in that time, but out of all the changes the three I'm most thankful for are: (1) Xorg replacing XFree86 and making video "just work" (2) Pulse Audio replacing OSS and making audio "just work" (3) systemd replacing the dog's breakfast of scripting madness each distro built from scratch instead of col…

Yeah. Lennart Poettering is one of the unsung heros of modern Linux - and the most maligned one, in my opinion.

While I get that some people are uncomfortable with breaking with traditions, I absolutely do not get all the hostility directed towards this craftsman programmer.

Re: Systemd 250 Released

#119
post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Since all software has bugs, that doesn't make it a new problem now does it?

systemd had way more bugs and crinkles for an init system when it first started, and an init system is critical software .

Everything is buggy the newer it is, your point being?

Linux itself was mostly unusable when it first started. And a kernel is even more important.

Re: Systemd 250 Released

#120
post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is so much truth to what you say. I used Linux exclusively from January 2000 until April 2012. A lot has changed in that time, but out of all the changes the three I'm most thankful for are: (1) Xorg replacing XFree86 and making video "just work" (2) Pulse Audio replacing OSS and making audio "just work" (3) systemd replacing the dog's breakfast of scripting madness each distro built from scratch instead of col…

I don't know about (2). Alsa "just worked" when pulse audio was released and PA did not "just work" for like 8 years after the first release. Seems like software history revisionism to me.

While PA in the beginning certainly wasn't manna from heaven, it still was a godsend; pulseaudio exposed all the inconsistencies, flaws and straight out bugs in the alsa driver implementations.

The reason so many people had issues with PA was not PA but the brokenness of the underlying system that PA exposed for the first time when trying to use all these drivers in a systematic way and build functionality on top of it. It took years of fixing all the drivers and PA - unfortunately - got a lot of undeserved flak.

PA is the reason that Linux has a halfway decent audio subsystem, being able to deal with all the modern devices; thank you, PA devs.

I find it hilarious that people are festive about PA being replaced by Pipewire - if PA hadn't paved the way, the Linux driver landscape would not be in such a good shape today and Pipewire would 'fail' in exactly the same way that PA 'failed.

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