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.NET Hot Reload Support via CLI

devblogs.microsoft.com

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Re: .NET Hot Reload Support via CLI

#111

Post by bmitc »

oaiey wrote: post #39
fabian2k wrote: post #25

This feels more like an internal turf war inside Microsoft. The general open source strategy with .NET Core and VS Code has been running long enough that I don't think it's just a smoke screen. But there's probably plenty of different interests inside Microsoft that are at least partially in conflict. The Azure side probably doesn't care about selling Visual Studio, but they care about developer mindshare and reputat…

There are people on record that it was the Azure division head Scott Guthrie who gave permission to open source ASP.NET Core (which at the time was part of Azure). Later the asp.net team merged with the .net team and brought the open sourcing with them. VS has no place anymore. The velocity and mindshare is with VS Code. VS with its visual designers had its place .. but desktop is dead and Xamarin competes with frame…

> but desktop is dead

People keep saying this, but they obviously have no idea. Desktop isn’t dead and nowhere near it. Just because web and mobile app developers think so doesn’t make it true.

There are several industries in which desktop applications are a must. Any application with the needs of multiple windows automatically rules out web and mobile stacks, even if they happen to work on desktops.

Re: .NET Hot Reload Support via CLI

#112

Post by ComputerGuru »

blibble wrote: post #36
ethbr0 wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At this point, VS needs to be put under VSC management. You saw the same crap with Office vs everything new.

yep, modern Visual Studio is a terrible experience end-to-end it takes at least 3 minutes to start, the UI designer takes 30+ seconds to appear, and starting your process for debugging takes 10+ seconds every single autocomplete takes a few seconds to appear even opening a 100 line .c file takes 10+ seconds, and they KNOW its bad because it pops up a dialog with a progress bar! this is all on a azure "cloud" instance…

What’s extensions do you have installed? VS 2019 significantly fixed performance issues, and I work with both C++ and C# projects much bigger than a few hundred lines of code. Debugging UWP and ASP.NET Core is a lot slower than debugging regular old WPF or SWF but that’s because of all the bloat during the deployment step.

If you have VisualAssist or Resharper installed, disable them and see the difference.

Re: .NET Hot Reload Support via CLI

#113

Post by LeoNatan25 »

aaomidi wrote: post #92

Of course Julia was behind the removal of it. I'm so glad I'm not at Microsoft anymore. Her decisions might be great for Microsoft's profit margins, but my god does she hate people getting "stuff for free"

Hopefully, after this kerfuffle, she soon announces she has made the tough decision to seek new and exciting opportunities outside of Microsoft.

Re: .NET Hot Reload Support via CLI

#114

Post by thrower123 »

nodejs_rulez_1 wrote: post #89
moogly wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For many workloads (at least .NET), JetBrains Rider. For C/C++ on Windows, well, you have VS Code and also JetBrains CLion, but IMO CLion is surprisingly rougher than Rider, even though it's older. You can get stuff done though.

Rider is a non-starter - doesn't even have a community edition.

It costs less than a cup of coffee a day. Complaining about the price is a nonstarter.

Re: .NET Hot Reload Support via CLI

#115

Post by GiorgioG »

oaiey wrote: post #39
fabian2k wrote: post #25

This feels more like an internal turf war inside Microsoft. The general open source strategy with .NET Core and VS Code has been running long enough that I don't think it's just a smoke screen. But there's probably plenty of different interests inside Microsoft that are at least partially in conflict. The Azure side probably doesn't care about selling Visual Studio, but they care about developer mindshare and reputat…

There are people on record that it was the Azure division head Scott Guthrie who gave permission to open source ASP.NET Core (which at the time was part of Azure). Later the asp.net team merged with the .net team and brought the open sourcing with them. VS has no place anymore. The velocity and mindshare is with VS Code. VS with its visual designers had its place .. but desktop is dead and Xamarin competes with frame…

As a long-time .NET Developer, there's no way in hell you're replacing my Visual Studio with Visual Studio Code. I'll sooner switch to Rider (which I have a license for and like to use on a Mac.) VSCode is a text editor on steroids. Visual Studio is an IDE. Full stop.

Re: .NET Hot Reload Support via CLI

#116

Post by blibble »

ComputerGuru wrote: post #112
blibble wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

yep, modern Visual Studio is a terrible experience end-to-end it takes at least 3 minutes to start, the UI designer takes 30+ seconds to appear, and starting your process for debugging takes 10+ seconds every single autocomplete takes a few seconds to appear even opening a 100 line .c file takes 10+ seconds, and they KNOW its bad because it pops up a dialog with a progress bar! this is all on a azure "cloud" instance…

What’s extensions do you have installed? VS 2019 significantly fixed performance issues, and I work with both C++ and C# projects much bigger than a few hundred lines of code. Debugging UWP and ASP.NET Core is a lot slower than debugging regular old WPF or SWF but that’s because of all the bloat during the deployment step. If you have VisualAssist or Resharper installed, disable them and see the difference.

none, clean installation every 2 weeks

(note I said a file with a hundred lines of code, not project)

Re: .NET Hot Reload Support via CLI

#117

Post by thrower123 »

I generally like Microsoft as a development stack, but this kerfuffle is reminding me of issues I've had trying to get the folks working on Graph API to understand why being able to access existing APIs with a different kind of credential than they currently support would be helpful.

If you're not familiar, there's two different ways to authenticate against Graph API - either directly with the user's credentials, which is good for webapps and user-interactive desktop stuff, and using application credentials, which are suited for server-side workers and daemons and things like that. All the Graph APIs have weird hodgepodges of permissions that are allowed, which sometimes make sense (getting the current user's profile at /me) and often don't make any sense at all, and are just not supported because they didn't bother.

If you've got a lot of time on your hands, you can whine and open UserVoice items and rally other people up and lobby, and sometimes they'll get off their asses and do something. Or not, like some of the Teams presence and calling APIs that have been unimplemented for three or four years now...

Re: .NET Hot Reload Support via CLI

#118

Post by nonbirithm »

thrower123 wrote: post #114
nodejs_rulez_1 wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Rider is a non-starter - doesn't even have a community edition.

It costs less than a cup of coffee a day. Complaining about the price is a nonstarter.

It's not really about the cost. It's about the principle of having to pay any amount of money to be able to do development work at all with your preferred choice of OS/editor.

Attaching a price to your ability to onboard a language with your favorite workflow changes how you view that language and the motives of its maintainers when compared to the alternatives for that platform. Java has no such barrier to adoption on Linux, for example, because IntelliJ happens to have a community edition.

Re: .NET Hot Reload Support via CLI

#119

Post by thrower123 »

blibble wrote: post #36
ethbr0 wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At this point, VS needs to be put under VSC management. You saw the same crap with Office vs everything new.

yep, modern Visual Studio is a terrible experience end-to-end it takes at least 3 minutes to start, the UI designer takes 30+ seconds to appear, and starting your process for debugging takes 10+ seconds every single autocomplete takes a few seconds to appear even opening a 100 line .c file takes 10+ seconds, and they KNOW its bad because it pops up a dialog with a progress bar! this is all on a azure "cloud" instance…

You can trace a lot of these problems to their bone-headed decision about a decade ago where they refused to see where things were going and kept rationalizing not moving to 64-bits.

I have some moderately sized solutions that take forever to open and chug to a halt and start paging like crazy with unresponsive UI if I don't disable all the code inspections and Intellisense. This is on a brand-new i7 with 32GB of RAM and a NVME SSD. It pegs itself at that 32-bit process memory limit and thrashes. It's worse if it is a modern web app with a bunch of JS involved.

And so I've used Rider almost exclusively for the past fifteen months or so...

Re: .NET Hot Reload Support via CLI

#120

Post by dmitriid »

nonbirithm wrote: post #118
thrower123 wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It costs less than a cup of coffee a day. Complaining about the price is a nonstarter.

It's not really about the cost. It's about the principle of having to pay any amount of money to be able to do development work at all with your preferred choice of OS/editor. Attaching a price to your ability to onboard a language with your favorite workflow changes how you view that language and the motives of its maintainers when compared to the alternatives for that platform. Java has no such barrier to adoption…

> It's about the principle of having to pay any amount of money to be able to do development work at all with your preferred choice of OS/editor.

Are you paid for your work? Why shouldn't the developers of development tools be?

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