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6th Generation Stealth Fighter: Joint Effort by UK, Japan, Italy and Sweden?

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Re: 6th Generation Stealth Fighter: Joint Effort by UK, Japan, Italy and Sweden?

#111

Post by hef19898 »

jabl wrote: post #67
neuronic wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Prime example of why military spending needs to be cut in half at least to focus on what's important. Not to weaken the military but to stop bullshit like this in its track.

Speaking of tracks, apparently production of M1 tanks is going at full pace, thanks to the factories being located in the districts of influential politicians. The military has no need for them though, so they are going straight to storage.

Despite, as far as I know, even the Army saying they don't want nor need these Abrams. Keeping the factories running is good, one never knows when that industrial base might needed at scale. and we no longer in the 40s when car factories could easily converted to tank production. You don't need full capacity production for that, so.

Re: 6th Generation Stealth Fighter: Joint Effort by UK, Japan, Italy and Sweden?

#112

Post by hef19898 »

tblt wrote: post #103
toxik wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are surely aware that France and the UK have nukes. That seems like a pretty strong deterrent.

Is it a given that France or the UK would deploy their nukes in response to, for example, Russian aggression on Europe’s eastern flank, say Estonia? If not, their use as a deterrence there is limited.

The risk I see is, that the EU and NATO isn't showing a hard line (might alternative be too late, so) to Putin. Then all it takes for him to try annexing the Baltic is the reasonable impression NATO isn't willing to go to full over that. In which case we would be screwed. The abandonment of Afghanistan certainly didn't help in projecting that kind of strength.

Re: 6th Generation Stealth Fighter: Joint Effort by UK, Japan, Italy and Sweden?

#113

Post by sgt101 »

dukeyukey wrote: post #101
wombatmobile wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Well, it's not like nobody has ever thought of that before. Naturally. What we haven't done before is invested in tools. We've invested trillions to make tools for advertising, but almost nothing to make tools for achieving peace. > The best we've been able to do is deterrence, which requires developing advanced weapons like aircraft carriers, stealth fighters and nukes. I'm not suggesting war or deterrence can be…

> We've invested trillions to make tools for advertising, but almost nothing to make tools for achieving peace. I'd argue the European Union was an experiment in peace along these lines, to bind a war-torn continent so close together that war becomes unthinkable. And it's worked - war between France and Germany, or the UK and Ireland, or Denmark and Sweden is unthinkable.

Hang on, I think you forgot something...

OH YES!

The US has parked an army in Germany for 75 years!

I dunno, but could this have been a factor in the "no war between European powers" thing?

And when we say "war between the UK and Ireland... unthinkable" do we mean that no-one is going to bomb or shoot people in the UK or Ireland to attempt to achieve a political objective in the relationships between those two countries? That would be jolly nice if it were come to pass !

Re: 6th Generation Stealth Fighter: Joint Effort by UK, Japan, Italy and Sweden?

#114

Post by scarygliders »

dukeyukey wrote: post #101
wombatmobile wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Well, it's not like nobody has ever thought of that before. Naturally. What we haven't done before is invested in tools. We've invested trillions to make tools for advertising, but almost nothing to make tools for achieving peace. > The best we've been able to do is deterrence, which requires developing advanced weapons like aircraft carriers, stealth fighters and nukes. I'm not suggesting war or deterrence can be…

> We've invested trillions to make tools for advertising, but almost nothing to make tools for achieving peace. I'd argue the European Union was an experiment in peace along these lines, to bind a war-torn continent so close together that war becomes unthinkable. And it's worked - war between France and Germany, or the UK and Ireland, or Denmark and Sweden is unthinkable.

This is not correct.

NATO has been the peacekeeping element in Europe. Not the EU, which is a far younger organisation than NATO.

Re: 6th Generation Stealth Fighter: Joint Effort by UK, Japan, Italy and Sweden?

#115

Post by Bronze_Colossus »

DocTomoe wrote: post #109
jabl wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As an European taxpayer, I'm certainly concerned that resources are wasted. OTOH, Putin has time and again proved that he's a belligerent crook entirely willing to expand his territory any time his neighbors show weakness. Much as I wish it were different, Europe must be able to mount a credible defense, with or without the USA.

As another European, I am in favor of aligning ourselves in a mutually beneficial economic exchange with Russia and China, which causes interdependence and a diminishing risk of military conflict. Putin, repeatedly, has been shown to be a reliable, and predictable partner - something we cannot really claim about the US, and increasingly less so in recent years.

Putin has not shown to be an reliable ally. The annexation of Crimea and the ongoing hybrid war in east Ukraine is one such example.

Putin does not want a strong independent ally next to Russia. He either wants puppet states such as Belarus as allies or a weak and fractured European union. For all the faults the US have they are still better allies than Russia by several lightyears.

Re: 6th Generation Stealth Fighter: Joint Effort by UK, Japan, Italy and Sweden?

#116

Post by TheOtherHobbes »

sgt101 wrote: post #113
dukeyukey wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> We've invested trillions to make tools for advertising, but almost nothing to make tools for achieving peace. I'd argue the European Union was an experiment in peace along these lines, to bind a war-torn continent so close together that war becomes unthinkable. And it's worked - war between France and Germany, or the UK and Ireland, or Denmark and Sweden is unthinkable.

Hang on, I think you forgot something... OH YES! The US has parked an army in Germany for 75 years! I dunno, but could this have been a factor in the "no war between European powers" thing? And when we say "war between the UK and Ireland... unthinkable" do we mean that no-one is going to bomb or shoot people in the UK or Ireland to attempt to achieve a political objective in the relationships between those two countr…

Pretty sure it wasn't NATO that kept France from invading Germany, and vice versa. Or kept Spain from attempting to annex Portugal. Or even just Gibraltar.

But please provide some citations if that's incorrect.

Re: 6th Generation Stealth Fighter: Joint Effort by UK, Japan, Italy and Sweden?

#117

Post by hulitu »

wombatmobile wrote: post #49

War is in part an expression of technological competitive advantage. Nth generation weaponry is expensive because technology requires the best minds, materials, and facilities that money can buy. But what if for the same money, or less, we could buy something even better? How much does peace cost? Has anybody ever costed it? For example, what could $2 trillion have bought in Iraq, Portland, or Jerusalem if it had bee…

> But what if for the same money, or less, we could buy something even better?

We don't want to buy, we want to own it. War means stealing from weaker countries.

> How much does peace cost?

Depends on the country. See eastern and central europe for some examples, north africa for others.

> Has anybody ever costed it?

No and the profitors don't want you to know.

Re: 6th Generation Stealth Fighter: Joint Effort by UK, Japan, Italy and Sweden?

#118

Post by TheOtherHobbes »

ganzuul wrote: post #68
wombatmobile wrote: post #49

War is in part an expression of technological competitive advantage. Nth generation weaponry is expensive because technology requires the best minds, materials, and facilities that money can buy. But what if for the same money, or less, we could buy something even better? How much does peace cost? Has anybody ever costed it? For example, what could $2 trillion have bought in Iraq, Portland, or Jerusalem if it had bee…

Violence is the last recourse of the incompetent.

Violence is the first recourse of the insane.

Individuals who dedicate their lives to violence and aggression in the way that superpowers do are committed to institutions.

Re: 6th Generation Stealth Fighter: Joint Effort by UK, Japan, Italy and Sweden?

#119

Post by sgt101 »

mongol wrote: post #48

From Wikipedia: "Tempest will be able to fly unmanned, and use swarming technology to control drones. It will incorporate artificial intelligence deep learning and carry directed-energy weapons. The aircraft will have a Cooperative Engagement Capability which is the ability to share data and messages with other aircraft and coordinate actions. Tempest will feature an adaptive cycle engine and a virtual cockpit shown…

>>A generator that delivers "unprecedented levels" of electrical power has also been developed for the aircraft.

Someone at MOD has finally learned... "what do you mean you can't move the ship and turn the radar on at the same time".. "what do you mean you can't fit catapults because there's nothing to power them".. etc etc etc

Re: 6th Generation Stealth Fighter: Joint Effort by UK, Japan, Italy and Sweden?

#120

Post by TheOtherHobbes »

kybernetikos wrote: post #102
kukx wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Weapons are also tools for peace, an atomic bomb helped a lot in that regard.

I looked into this a few years back and the cost/benefit of the initial use of atomic weapons is not as cut and dried as many people believe. That's not really the topic here though. It's absolutely true that weapons can be tools for peace, but I don't think that is how the projects in Afghanistan and Iraq played out. Even with the best intentions the fact that it is a military operation planned by military leaders a…

The US uses war to export its domestic issues abroad. War is the primary conduit and excuse for corporate welfare.

Some of this goes into jobs. Occasionally - exceptionally, and less often than most people realise - some of it spins off into useful civilian tech.

But most of it is just free money for nothing much to not very nice people. Some of whom use it to buy political influence. And some of whom use existing political influence to make sure they benefit from it personally.

It's a perfect circle of corruption and moral decay built on foundations of death and terror.

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