Why workers are calling BS on leaders about returning to the office • Hacker News Board

Re: Why workers are calling BS on leaders about returning to the office

#111

Post by pinkybanana » Thu, Jun 03, 2021, 8:57 PM UTC

narrator wrote: post #82

phkahler wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem with fully remote work is that once you accept that a job can be done from anywhere, you have to compete on a global level. It can be done from India, China, Pakistan, or any other place where they have smart people willing to work for less than you! So don't get too excited about it ;-)

This is why it's good to be a lawyer. It's one of the last remaining guilds of knowledge workers with any power. It's literally illegal to have someone from wherever do certain tasks if they are not properly licensed.

Lawyers do a lot of work where their licence is not really needed.

Re: Why workers are calling BS on leaders about returning to the office

#112

Post by zucked » Thu, Jun 03, 2021, 8:58 PM UTC

dcolkitt wrote: post #28

tstegart wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm finding there are a certain group of people who are really struggling socially, and to them this is a good thing, even with the risks. Some people lost their whole social network when the office went home, and they long for it to come back. As a person who can only handle so much social interaction, it is baffling, but to others, it is baffling to stay home all the time.

A lot of those people are only struggling in the first place because the broken office-first model required them to relocate to a metro where they have no family or social network. This is particularly bad in the tech industry, because the major tech metros are notoriously unsocial. People on the West Coast tend to have fewer friends and be less outgoing[1], so it's particularly hard to meet people when you relocate…

I won't argue with this being a difficult issue, but I also want to push back a little bit on this notion that forcing people into a situation is a totally net bad thing.

As an adult, you have precious few opportunities to make lasting, deep friendships. I consider myself an outgoing person with lots of shallow friendships, but my best, deepest friends are still the ones from High School, College, and the surrounding activities -- places I was, more or less, forced to be.

Being forced to be somewhere, be it the office, your college dorm, or the US West coast, gives you a sense of shared experience. Is it ideal? Maybe not, but a lot of people are, for better or worse, forced into experiences that (can) lead to deep and lasting friendships.

Candidly, I actually miss the office, even with all its warts. It builds a shared experience that is difficult to replicate digitally. I can see it in the faces of new hires since WFH started - despite best attempts at inclusion, they're still a little bit on the outside looking in.

Re: Why workers are calling BS on leaders about returning to the office

#113

Post by bluefirebrand » Thu, Jun 03, 2021, 9:00 PM UTC

tstegart wrote: post #11

kevingadd wrote: post #3

"One worker’s company “had everyone come into the office for an outdoor luncheon a week ago,” according to a post" Some of the stuff companies do truly baffles me. It's only the beginning of June, you can't really assume your whole team is fully vaccinated. Why would you bring everyone in for lunch and then send them home? All downside and near-zero upside. It'd be another matter if it was a full day event where you…

I'm finding there are a certain group of people who are really struggling socially, and to them this is a good thing, even with the risks. Some people lost their whole social network when the office went home, and they long for it to come back. As a person who can only handle so much social interaction, it is baffling, but to others, it is baffling to stay home all the time.

Maybe it's a bit rude of me but I'm fine letting the socialites struggle in isolation for a bit.

Pay close attention to how you feel during all of this, extroverts, and remember it. You probably make introverts feel like that every day with your pushy social behaviour.

Re: Why workers are calling BS on leaders about returning to the office

#114

Post by sxp » Thu, Jun 03, 2021, 9:02 PM UTC

narrator wrote: post #82

phkahler wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem with fully remote work is that once you accept that a job can be done from anywhere, you have to compete on a global level. It can be done from India, China, Pakistan, or any other place where they have smart people willing to work for less than you! So don't get too excited about it ;-)

This is why it's good to be a lawyer. It's one of the last remaining guilds of knowledge workers with any power. It's literally illegal to have someone from wherever do certain tasks if they are not properly licensed.

It's not /that/ good. Due to the high supply of lawyers, the compensation is heavily bimodal: https://danluu.com/bimodal-compensation/

Re: Why workers are calling BS on leaders about returning to the office

#115

Post by pinkybanana » Thu, Jun 03, 2021, 9:04 PM UTC

post_break wrote: post #4

We were told for years, there is no flex time, don't even think about it. While the higher ups obviously flexed whenever they wanted to. Suddenly covid hits and I'm scrambling to get everyone setup so they can work remote. We go a whole year working remote with almost no issues or lost productivity. And now we're back in the office and the mood has definitely changed.

> We go a whole year working remote with almost no issues or lost productivity

I've heard a lot about this claim "no lost productivity". However that is for the employer to be evaluated, not for the employees. The complaining employees lose credibility when they make claims like that in complex fields, because productivity is very complex metric to be measured in many jobs.

Re: Why workers are calling BS on leaders about returning to the office

#116

Post by lotsofpulp » Thu, Jun 03, 2021, 9:04 PM UTC

itronitron wrote: post #105

lotsofpulp wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Anyone can catch anything and potentially pass it on all the time. But at least the CDC thinks the risk is sufficiently low that it is not worth worrying about: https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/vaccines/fully-vac... >If you’ve been fully vaccinated: >If you’ve been around someone who has COVID-19, you do not need to stay away from others or get tested unless you have symptoms. I don't know what this caveat r…

CDC has lost a fair bit of credibility from my perspective over the past several years. A lot of their guidance, or lack of it, has been politically influenced.

Guidance for masks and COVID shutdowns under a government led by people publicly denouncing masks and shutdowns was politically influenced?

Guidance for opening up and removing mask mandates under a government led by people publicly for masks and for extra caution for opening back up is politically influenced?

Sounds like some terribly ineffective political influence.

Re: Why workers are calling BS on leaders about returning to the office

#117

Post by ishjoh » Thu, Jun 03, 2021, 9:06 PM UTC

narrator wrote: post #82

phkahler wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem with fully remote work is that once you accept that a job can be done from anywhere, you have to compete on a global level. It can be done from India, China, Pakistan, or any other place where they have smart people willing to work for less than you! So don't get too excited about it ;-)

This is why it's good to be a lawyer. It's one of the last remaining guilds of knowledge workers with any power. It's literally illegal to have someone from wherever do certain tasks if they are not properly licensed.

There are Indian universities that specialize in US law and train their students in US law. Law firms that have those lawyers work overnight on items that in the past were given to new grads. Experienced lawyers then review those documents, fix any issues, and put their signature on the document.

You could argue that there still has to be a US lawyer in the loop, but that's still true of software projects as well, that there is one Sr. software person overseeing the outsourced team.

Re: Why workers are calling BS on leaders about returning to the office

#118

Post by andy_ppp » Thu, Jun 03, 2021, 9:07 PM UTC

cmuguythrow wrote: post #62

darth_avocado wrote: post #34

The whole pushback against remote work is absolutely nuts. When the companies were staring at shutdowns and loss of revenue, everyone gladly accepted the idea that people can work from home. And contrary to the popular belief, productivity increased (our own CEO admitted at one point in an all hands). But the minute there was a sign things are opening up, there's a complete opposite viewpoint being pushed from the sa…

Just want to provide a counter-story to your anecdote. Many of my colleagues are excited to go back to the office to increase collaboration and work satisfaction. Personally, wfh is really difficult for me and I can't wait to get back in the office. Working from home feels like grinding away at an endless list of tasks and waiting for the day to be over. Working at an office feels like playing a sport with a team - e…

Personally I think being junior is so so difficult to do remotely. It must be insanely hard to get things done and have the confidence to organise people who are more senior than you to have those random conversations and exploration meetings that make a product worthwhile (and that you can learn from). It is possible but you need to manufacture the spontaneity if you see what I mean. Most of the people who love WFH seem to be very advanced in their careers.

Re: Why workers are calling BS on leaders about returning to the office

#119

Post by drewcoo » Thu, Jun 03, 2021, 9:08 PM UTC

darth_avocado wrote: post #34

The whole pushback against remote work is absolutely nuts. When the companies were staring at shutdowns and loss of revenue, everyone gladly accepted the idea that people can work from home. And contrary to the popular belief, productivity increased (our own CEO admitted at one point in an all hands). But the minute there was a sign things are opening up, there's a complete opposite viewpoint being pushed from the sa…

5. People who don't want to compete with a global pool of workers

Those initial waves of offshoring were nothing compared with what COVID did. Wait until this affects labor prices.

Re: Why workers are calling BS on leaders about returning to the office

#120

Post by joecot » Thu, Jun 03, 2021, 9:09 PM UTC

phkahler wrote: post #71

darth_avocado wrote: post #34

The whole pushback against remote work is absolutely nuts. When the companies were staring at shutdowns and loss of revenue, everyone gladly accepted the idea that people can work from home. And contrary to the popular belief, productivity increased (our own CEO admitted at one point in an all hands). But the minute there was a sign things are opening up, there's a complete opposite viewpoint being pushed from the sa…

The problem with fully remote work is that once you accept that a job can be done from anywhere, you have to compete on a global level. It can be done from India, China, Pakistan, or any other place where they have smart people willing to work for less than you! So don't get too excited about it ;-)

One of the reasons I went with a 99% remote job. I'm an hour from the office. There's nothing I can't do from home a vast majority of the time, but the proximity to the office means that when there is value in me showing up, I can, on very short notice. They definitely paid me more for that ability, even though they were fine with me only planning on coming in maybe once a quarter. And I like that I'll still be getting some face time.

Relatedly, after my previous job tried to force everyone back in the office a majority of the time, and I gave them my notice after accepting an offer a week later, my former boss was suddenly very willing to discuss working from home 3 days a week if it meant I stayed. They can do it, they know remote work has been fine for a year+, they just don't want to. If you're an employer, make your peace with a hybrid or remote environment and make the accommodations clear now, not after all your people have started interviewing places that will. No matter what you're paying your tech folks, someone else will pay them more right now, and then it'll be too late.