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US raises ‘deep concerns’ over WHO report on Covid’s Wuhan origins

reuters.com

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Re: US raises ‘deep concerns’ over WHO report on Covid’s Wuhan origins

#111

Post by underseacables »

LMYahooTFY wrote: post #41
endisneigh wrote: post #21

Forgive my ignorance but even if it was lab created, so what? I don’t really understand why it matters or not. Didn’t the entire world basically have a nearly 3 month heads up on this either way?

I think there are social/political ramifications to seriously consider. Similar to if we had a sudden large radiation hazard and it was unclear if it was some spontaneously emerging phenomenon with essentially no direct human cause, or a power plant/enrichment facility/warhead manufacturer/etc. And beyond that, there are supposedly methods of (even purely scientifically motivated) research that would involve engineer…

The Chinese response to international concerns over the Wuhan virus is very similar to the Soviet Unions response to the same concern over a sudden spike in nuclear radiation. There’s something strange about a government that works so hard to stifle all questions and dissent. It’s like they don’t realize the act of oppression of inquiry raises the level of inquiry even more.

Re: US raises ‘deep concerns’ over WHO report on Covid’s Wuhan origins

#112

Post by renewiltord »

the8472 wrote: post #102
kergonath wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Mask early, serious lockdown as soon as it becomes serious, and don’t end lockdowns before numbers are way low. We masked late, put lockdowns in place late if at all, and ended them way too early, which means that some countries went through several ones. And we’re not through yet. That said, I don’t share the optimism of the parent poster. This would be a heavy burden in terms of freedom and human rights for a resul…

>> If the Western world would have done what the WHO advised at the time, we all more or less would have a COVID stuation like the Chinese have for some time. > Mask early Are we living in the same timeline? https://twitter.com/WHO/status/1243972193169616898 https://twitter.com/UNGeneva/status/1244661916535930886 https://twitter.com/WHO/status/1234095938555260929 https://twitter.com/WHO/status/1234871709091667969 htt…

Thank you for putting this stuff together. In the past, I did the same when people asked for "source?" for things like "Fauci and the HHS recommended against masking". After I go through the painful process of reacquiring each of the sources, these people disappear.

"Source?" is now the dual of the Gish Gallop strategy. It is a meta-rhetorical strategy to amplify work done by some perceived "opponent".

After all, for anyone who truly believes in sourced claims, they would say "I found these sources that do X. What have you found?" This is natural because they are more interested in the truth than in an argument against an "opponent".

So now I don't respond to disproportionate requests for work. I am glad you did, though. And looking through them, it's exactly as I remember: anti-mask advocacy.

Re: US raises ‘deep concerns’ over WHO report on Covid’s Wuhan origins

#113

Post by kjakm »

esja wrote: post #31

I am yet to see a single piece of evidence which rules out the lab leak hypothesis. Meanwhile the circumstantial evidence in favour of that hypothesis (including China’s behaviour) continues to pile up. We may never discover the truth, but I really hope we do.

>> Meanwhile the circumstantial evidence in favour of that hypothesis (including China’s behaviour) continues to pile up.

What circumstantial evidence?

Re: US raises ‘deep concerns’ over WHO report on Covid’s Wuhan origins

#114

Post by foolmeonce »

I think the WHO did a fine job of writing it up. The US motive for proving China is at fault is largely political diversion from the US' mishandling, which would be mishandling no matter what origin.

That China blocked the Who's efforts and the WHO disclosed this is more relevant to future health policy than where this particular outbreak started. (Do we really want the public health system to tune to this specific scenario?)

Re: US raises ‘deep concerns’ over WHO report on Covid’s Wuhan origins

#115

Post by mc32 »

Udik wrote: post #98
ttz wrote: post #53

First gen Chinese, grew up in NA. Have contact with relatives "on the ground". My own experience: Don't ever trust the Chinese government on issues that could potentially involve the reputation of the party. Note that I'm not saying don't trust what CCP says, ever (sometimes they actually do good things) - just not on issues that involve anything to do with how the world might perceive them. Which is exactly what thi…

> Don't ever trust the Chinese government on issues that could potentially involve the reputation of the party Seems this holds true for every government and party.

The difference is there is no opposition to question the official stance. So I’d say it’s naive to imply the same holds true everywhere. Even Russia and Turkey have vocal dissidents.

Re: US raises ‘deep concerns’ over WHO report on Covid’s Wuhan origins

#116

Post by avaldeso »

Frost1x wrote: post #92
endisneigh wrote: post #21

Forgive my ignorance but even if it was lab created, so what? I don’t really understand why it matters or not. Didn’t the entire world basically have a nearly 3 month heads up on this either way?

If it was lab created then you know some group intentionally or through their negligence caused millions and millions of people to die. They won't be held accountable unless China itself would decide to do so (assuming in this hypothetical that it was created by China of course). If it was being developed as a biological weapon you would tend to assume there's likely progress on how to defend against it by those who…

> If it was lab created then you know some group intentionally or through their negligence caused millions and millions of people to die.

Just 2.4 millions as today. Not millions and millions. This is not 1918 flu levels (yet).

Re: US raises ‘deep concerns’ over WHO report on Covid’s Wuhan origins

#117

Post by ArkanExplorer »

mgamache wrote: post #4

Related: China refused to provide WHO team with raw data on early COVID cases, https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-who-ch...

But we did have data from cruise ships early in 2020 which showed that deaths were heavily age-specific, and that the death and hospitalization forecasts from organisations like Oxford were highly inaccurate.

Yet for some reason the West seemed intent on pursuing lockdowns, demonising countries like Sweden and Belarus which didn't.

Hospitals have never been overloaded (apart from places like New York where symptomatic patients were sent back into nursing homes - or Italy, with generally inadequate pandemic preparations) and in places like Sweden deaths in 2020 are up only single-digits against 2018:

https://www.statista.com/statistics/525353/sweden-number-of-...

As soon as we realised we were over-intubating patients, and that proning and oxygen treatment were sufficient for serious admissions, and that Vitamin D and C (and other cheap and generic treatments) were enough for the general population, the potential for hospital overload (beyond what flu waves incur anyway) was also eliminated.

And yet we still persist with lockdowns despite them causing a greater amount of harm than the virus itself due to factors like interrupted education, mental damage, and interrupted regular medical treatment.

There were political games afoot in both China and the West in terms of this virus. The fact that the American economy was booming just before the re-election of a non-mainstream, anti-China president, and that pandemic responses justified mail-in voting on an unprecedent scale is too coincidental to ignore.

Re: US raises ‘deep concerns’ over WHO report on Covid’s Wuhan origins

#118

Post by Udik »

throwawaysea wrote: post #50
endisneigh wrote: post #21

Forgive my ignorance but even if it was lab created, so what? I don’t really understand why it matters or not. Didn’t the entire world basically have a nearly 3 month heads up on this either way?

It’s not necessarily lab created but it could have been leaked from a lab (which studies coronaviruses and bats) even if it wasn’t artificial. It matters because it lays more blame on China and creates the political expediency needed for sanctions. I do agree that there should be consequences for the Chinese government regardless of whether the virus was a leak or not (or artificial or not), and that it isn’t depende…

> It’s not necessarily lab created but it could have been leaked from a lab (which studies coronaviruses and bats) even if it wasn’t artificial.

I've heard this multiple times as a reasonable possibility, and yet it seems absurd if you think about it: are you trying to accuse someone of leaking into the environment a virus that actually comes from the environment? And how do you even prove something like that?

Re: US raises ‘deep concerns’ over WHO report on Covid’s Wuhan origins

#119

Post by renewiltord »

malandrew wrote: post #110
the-dude wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I watched the WHO press briefings in about the first month. If the Western world would have done what the WHO advised at the time, we all more or less would have a COVID stuation like the Chinese have for some time.

Re: masks, you need to remember that China pretty much shut down all exports of PPE to keep it for domestic use. There wasn’t much more the rest of the world could have done to follow that directive. Even those of us that did have some stockpiled were asked to donate them to hospitals. Masks were hard to come by for a while until a cottage industry popped up to create second-rate masks.

I am actually very unhappy about this. I knew that masks were reusable. The advice against reuse explains why they are reusable under the right conditions.

But then I gave away my N95 mask stockpile (years old¹) in a moment of weakness because local medical personnel appealed on the Internet. I regret it entirely because I didn't want to do it, had concrete rational reasons not to do it, and then I felt bad when they appealed and did it anyway.

I really regret the emotional hijack. I'll never let it happen again. I just know they used those masks once and threw them away. Or maybe they used them zero times because they couldn't tell if they're safe because they're from the public. I really really regret it.

¹ Because CA sees wildfires everyone I know has boxes of these. And old ones are not supposed to be used either, but the only common failure mode over ten years isn't filtration, it's the elastic, which was fine on mine.

Re: US raises ‘deep concerns’ over WHO report on Covid’s Wuhan origins

#120

Post by zepto »

kergonath wrote: post #67
katbyte wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Could you elaborate on what that situation is?

Mask early, serious lockdown as soon as it becomes serious, and don’t end lockdowns before numbers are way low. We masked late, put lockdowns in place late if at all, and ended them way too early, which means that some countries went through several ones. And we’re not through yet. That said, I don’t share the optimism of the parent poster. This would be a heavy burden in terms of freedom and human rights for a resul…

The WHO seemed to be doing everything it could to prevent people from talking the virus seriously at the beginning.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-china-health-who/who-says...

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