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Dissecting the Apple M1 GPU, Part II

rosenzweig.io

111–120 of 195 posts

Re: Dissecting the Apple M1 GPU, Part II

#111

So Apple strategy seems to be to commit as little resources as possible to their products knowing that "open source" developers will do their work for free thus Apple will not have to pay extra salaries and taxes? I don't understand why people bother working for free to e.g. run Linux or even write a GPU driver? I get this is a nice developer challenge, and being involved with Apple stuff is still being seen as "cool…

> So Apple strategy seems to be to commit as little resources as possible to their products knowing that "open source" developers will do their work for free thus Apple will not have to pay extra salaries and taxes?

Apple has no Linux strategy. Nobody is working for Apple for free. People are working on their own time (or supporting the project with their own money) because they want to see this happen.

There is no skin in this for Apple either way.

What I don't understand is why people insist on criticizing a project which won't fundamentally affect them at all. Having Linux on Mac isn't going to hurt you and stands to benefit the community as a whole.

While the GPU port is unlikely to benefit others, it's very likely some of the other work will. Any improvements to the Broadcom drivers will be useful for the entire community. Improvements and optimizations to ARM64 support will likewise benefit the whole community.

Really tired of the mis-directed zealots who think they have the right to tell other people where to direct their time and energy.

Re: Dissecting the Apple M1 GPU, Part II

#112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, is this M1 really _that_ good to commit considerable amount of time into it instead of working on something more meaningful or benefitting ones personal life more? Are they able to make a commercial product out of it? Unless it gives the person the same kick as fishing or building Lego - but these hobbies don't have a side effect of filling the pockets of a big co. The idea about "cheaper Mac" is weak, because…

> Well, is this M1 really _that_ good to commit considerable amount of time into it instead of working on something more meaningful or benefitting ones personal life more? M1 is an ARM chip that's up there with Intel desktop PCs. That's awesome. It's possibly the real beginning of the end of the effective Wintel monopoly on personal computing and if we are going to continue to have Linux on hardware that's not locked…

This is like building a house on a swamp. Without official Linux support, Apple can pull the plug anytime. It's likely what is going to happen is that eventually a viable open source project emerges that Apple didn't pay anyone to build and then they will announce how they embrace open source and tell their own developers to contribute few lines for PR.

> Whatever they are doing now, is working. If you are using child labour, avoid taxes, use anti-competitive measures, make stuff deliberately difficult to repair and easy to break and then have money to shut any politicians willing to look into their shady business then yes it is definitely working.

Re: Dissecting the Apple M1 GPU, Part II

#113

Everyone, remember that in 2019 Alyssa was in _High School_. Where do people get this knowledge? It's astounding. She was literally reverse-engineering Mali for Panfrost starting in her Sophomore year.

Truly impressive work. > Where do people get this knowledge? Time, hands-on experimentation, and focus. Anecdotally, reverse engineering and low-level hacking felt more popular back in the 90s and early 2000s. Back then, there were fewer distractions to soak up the free time of young tech enthusiasts. Old IRC chatrooms feel like a trickle of distraction relative to the firehose of Twitter, Reddit, 24/7 news cycles, a…

There is a world of difference in free time between "having a 9-5 job" and "being in high school", though.

In high school, I was lucky enough to not have to do laundry, feed myself, or a variety of other tasks and chores that come along with adulthood. I also could sleep like crap and make it up during school the next day. Not to mention that the time I spent at school wasn't spent programming, so when I got home it wasn't more of the same, it was exciting. I could sit at the computer programing from 3pm to 2am.

Re: Dissecting the Apple M1 GPU, Part II

#114
post #110
post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At the age of 10 I was coding for the Timex 2068, using books like these ones, https://www.atariarchives.org/ Yes, they are for the Atari, just trying to make a point here. So any smart kid in the age of Internet, instead of having what is available at the local library, is quite capable to build up the skills to achieve this kind of work at the high school level.

Strongly disagree. There is a big difference between doing some interesting hacking at a young age and getting your GPU driver included in the mainline Linux kernel. The author appears to be a true CS prodigy.

In 8 and 16 bit home computers you wrote your own graphics driver, in Assembly, if you wanted to draw anything beyond the toy BASIC graphics commands.

I guess anyone doing games were a prodigy back then.

Re: Dissecting the Apple M1 GPU, Part II

#115
post #114
post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Strongly disagree. There is a big difference between doing some interesting hacking at a young age and getting your GPU driver included in the mainline Linux kernel. The author appears to be a true CS prodigy.

In 8 and 16 bit home computers you wrote your own graphics driver, in Assembly, if you wanted to draw anything beyond the toy BASIC graphics commands. I guess anyone doing games were a prodigy back then.

Yes, perhaps, and at that time it was also a much simpler proposition to do that.

I would imagine at that time there were also many fewer kids at a high-school level doing that kind of hacking, so it might not be totally wrong to say they were all prodigies.

Re: Dissecting the Apple M1 GPU, Part II

#116
post #115
post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In 8 and 16 bit home computers you wrote your own graphics driver, in Assembly, if you wanted to draw anything beyond the toy BASIC graphics commands. I guess anyone doing games were a prodigy back then.

Yes, perhaps, and at that time it was also a much simpler proposition to do that. I would imagine at that time there were also many fewer kids at a high-school level doing that kind of hacking, so it might not be totally wrong to say they were all prodigies.

I guess, C64, Amiga, Atari didn't had programmable graphics hardware after all.

Re: Dissecting the Apple M1 GPU, Part II

#117

OK I love this, but I am pretty sure my chances of getting a mac in the future are zero. From which side should I expect the PC response? Intel? AMD? Microsoft? ARM? Samsung? I think Apple willingly or not has just obliterated the whole consumer pc market.

> I think Apple willingly or not has just obliterated the whole consumer pc market.

They definitely won the "general public use laptop" market (if you conveniently ignore the rest of the laptop and OSX, which are utter crap IMO), but its important to understand that they really didn't invent anything, they just optimized. And optimizing something like this means you make the stuff that is most commonly used better, while reducing the functionality of the rest.

Compare the Asus Zephyrus RoG 14 laptop with the Macbook pro. G14 has the older Ryzen 9 4900HS chip, and while the single core performance of the MBP is better, the multi core is the same despite the 4900HZ being a last gen chip. G14 gets about 11 hours of battery time for regular use, MBP gets about 16, but the G14 also has a discrete GPU that is superior for gaming than the integrated GPU of the mac. Different configurations for different things.

Then, even ignoring the companies decision to mix and match components, the reason why you can buy any windows based laptop and install Linux on it and have 99% of the functionality working right out of the box is because of the standardization of the cpu architecture. With the Apple M1, even though Rosetta is very well built, its support is not universal across all applications, some run poorly or not at all.

And while modern compilers are smart, they have a long way to go before true cross operability with all the performance enhancements. Just look at any graphical linux distro, and the fact that all android devices out there run linux, but there isn't a way to natively run it on them without the chroot method that doesn't take advantage of the hardware.

So in the end, if you are someone that just wants a laptop with good performance and great battery life, and don't care about any particular software since most of your time will be spent on the web or in the Apple Ecosystem software, the M1 machines are definitely the right choice. However, if you want something like a dev machine with Linux where you just want to be able to git clone software and it work without any issues, you are most likely going to be better off with the "windows" based laptops with traditional AMD/Intel chips for quite some time.

Re: Dissecting the Apple M1 GPU, Part II

#118
post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So they're announcing a "platform". Smacks of managerial bottom-covering. Almost like forming a committee to investigate the problem. - where was this 1/2/10 years ago? - how would this address the fundamental CPU performance gap? - Intel has no competitive GPU offering, yet another glaring failure on their part - why would OEMs go along with this when Ryzen is a better CPU, GPU, aside from getting Intel bribes and t…

"I get Intel doesn't own the stack/vertical integration, but Intel could have devoted 1% of its revenue to a kickass Linux OS to keep Microsoft honest a long time ago and demonstrate its full hardware." Interesting point.. makes one wonder why didn't they do it while having a mountain of cash.

They were so in bed with Microsoft.

Microsoft being a true monopoly might have struck fear in the timid souls of Intel executives that they would go headlong for AMD.

Or Google had this opportunity for years, and half-assed ChromeOS. Or AMD. Or Dell/HP/IBM who sold enough x86 to have money on the side.

I don't buy that it would have been hard. Look at what Apple did with OSX with such a paltry market share and way before the iPhone money train came. First consumer OSX release was 2001.

Sure, Apple had a massive advantage by buying NeXT's remnants and Jobs's familiarity with it and the people behind it, but remember that Apple's first choice was BeOS.

So anyone looking to push things could have got BeOS, or an army of Sun people as Sun killed off Solaris. The talent was out there.

Instead here we sit with Windows in a perpetual state of the two-desktop tiled/old frankenstein, Linux DE balkanization and perpetual reinvention/rewrite from scratch, and OSX locked on Apple.

Re: Dissecting the Apple M1 GPU, Part II

#119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> but the M1 is still version 0 for macs. Fair enough, it's just important to keep in mind that M1 is a result of decade(s) long progressive enhancement. M2 is going to be another incremental step in the series. > to me it's equivalent to someone defending the keyboards on a palm treo. This is a major shift in capability ... That's a completely unjustified comparison. iPhone brought a new way to interact with your ph…

> "That's a completely unjustified comparison. iPhone brought a new way to interact with your phone." People don't really remember, but a lot of people were really dismissive of the iPhone (and iPod) on launch. For the iPhone, the complaints were about cost, about lack of hardware keyboard, about fingerprints on the screen. People complained that it was less usable than existing phones for email, etc. The M1 brings m…

> People don't really remember, but a lot of people were really dismissive of the iPhone (and iPod) on launch.

I do remember that. iPhone had its growing pains in the first year, and there was a fair criticism back then. But it was also clear that iPhone brings a completely new vision to the concept of a mobile phone.

M1 brings a nice performance at fairly low power, but that's just a quantitative difference. No new vision. Perf/watt improvements have been happening every single year since the first chips were manufactured.

> I also think x86 cannot compete now and things will only get a lot worse as Apple's chips get even better.

Why? Somehow Apple's chips will get better, but competition will stand still? AMD is making currently great progresses, and it finally looks like Intel is waking up from letargia as well.

Re: Dissecting the Apple M1 GPU, Part II

#120
post #89
post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"I get Intel doesn't own the stack/vertical integration, but Intel could have devoted 1% of its revenue to a kickass Linux OS to keep Microsoft honest a long time ago and demonstrate its full hardware." Interesting point.. makes one wonder why didn't they do it while having a mountain of cash.

They do have something – Clear Linux [0]. Definitely not too mcuh investment, but they do differentiate by compiling packages for much newer instruction sets compared to other distros. [0]: https://clearlinux.org/

The real differentiator would have been an army of good driver coders and contributors to KDE/GnomeX.
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