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Twitch suspends DragonForce guitarist Herman Li for playing his own music

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Re: Twitch suspends DragonForce guitarist Herman Li for playing his own music

#111

Post by satyrnein »

Blikkentrekker wrote: post #109
satyrnein wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If he was playing his own composition live, it's not the recording that the label owns. This is why revenue from live shows doesn't go to labels. This is also why Taylor Swift is re-recordings her old songs, for another example.

The label would not own the performance, no, but he would still not be allowed to give a performance of any material he does not own without the permission of the rightsholder. There are some “reasonable fair use” exceptions such as simply singing a certain tune, but the point is that the fact that he wrote the original composition is irrelevant; it only matters that he owns the copyright. If the copyright indeed wer…

Yes, to clarify, I meant if he owns the composition. It's possible a publisher owns or co-owns it, even if he wrote it (but unlikely that a label would).

Re: Twitch suspends DragonForce guitarist Herman Li for playing his own music

#112

Post by Blikkentrekker »

satyrnein wrote: post #111
Blikkentrekker wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The label would not own the performance, no, but he would still not be allowed to give a performance of any material he does not own without the permission of the rightsholder. There are some “reasonable fair use” exceptions such as simply singing a certain tune, but the point is that the fact that he wrote the original composition is irrelevant; it only matters that he owns the copyright. If the copyright indeed wer…

Yes, to clarify, I meant if he owns the composition. It's possible a publisher owns or co-owns it, even if he wrote it (but unlikely that a label would).

Surely it would be expected of a band of Dragonforce's size that the label would own the rights and not the members?

Re: Twitch suspends DragonForce guitarist Herman Li for playing his own music

#113

Post by bostik »

whack wrote: post #102
libertine wrote: post #31

When will platforms start to be charged for their mistakes? Pretty sure if they had to make financial compensations for their mistakes, they would start using humans more often to support this crap automated system. You would start to see more people being able to reach human support, getting human replies, etc. Would be pretty easy - for each day without reply, fine X. For X day of suspension, fine Y. And so on. If…

> When will platforms start to be charged for their mistakes? Pretty sure if they had to make financial compensations for their mistakes, they would start using humans more often to support this crap automated system. How exactly would you enforce this? Media companies have the right to not show content from a given artist, at any time, for any reason. If you passed a law saying that twitch has to pay fines for false…

> If you passed a law saying that twitch has to pay fines for false DMCA takedowns

You have to dig deeper, beyond the platforms themselves: make it extremely expensive and dangerous to file copyfraud claims. As long as the incentives are in favour of carpetbombing, you will have lots of casualties.

Repeating something I have said before, it feels to me the correct solution would be to go full Hammurabi on the perverse incentives. To eliminate the asymmetric warfare, one change would be enough. -- If a company, or an agent acting in their name, files a fraudulent copyright takedown, then the victim of that takedown gets to choose one item from that company's catalog that will become public domain. The company also becomes liable for all the lost [royalty] income for the creators of that particular item.

The point is not to eliminate takedowns or make them technologically less effective. Goal should be to eliminate the incentives on abusing them, and make the depletion of culture a bad default.

Re: Twitch suspends DragonForce guitarist Herman Li for playing his own music

#114

Post by dane-pgp »

amanaplanacanal wrote: post #104
fortran77 wrote: post #67

Every time I upload a video of me playing a "classical" work (Bach, Chopin, Mozart) on the piano, I get a YouTube warning and the content blocked. So far, about two dozen times, I challenge it and it comes back, but I expect someday to exceed some threshold and be gone forever. Some of the challengers are "scam" companies, but other times it's Deutsche Gramophone or Sony.

Evidently your playing sounds too much like one of their professionals. Take it as a complement.

Alternatively, you are playing from a modern typesetting of the music which has some extra notes added to detect that you are making a derivative work through your performance, like how map makers add "trap streets" to their works.

Being serious, though, I believe that a typesetting of a piece of public domain music can be eligible for copyright, but I don't believe that a performance from that typesetting can count as a derivative work of the typesetting, even if the musician faithfully performs a few "new" notes added by the typesetter.

Re: Twitch suspends DragonForce guitarist Herman Li for playing his own music

#115

Post by sp332 »

annexrichmond wrote: post #64
codingdave wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You make them pay by abandoning them as a customer. Stop streaming. Stop watching. Fining businesses who make mistakes is a dangerous path. That means anyone new to the industry who tosses up their first project is open to getting fined if they make a mistake. It also means there is either some organization in charge of being the watchdog for the industry with power to just apply fines to companies as they see fit...…

Instead of fining businesses, perhaps the answer is litigation. I’m not sure what their TOS says, and I wouldn’t be surprised if it protects from this, but yeah, the liability should be that you open yourself up to being sued if you erroneously remove a user from your platform, who is using it as their job

Isn't there already civil liability for this?

Re: Twitch suspends DragonForce guitarist Herman Li for playing his own music

#116

Post by fortran77 »

dane-pgp wrote: post #114
amanaplanacanal wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Evidently your playing sounds too much like one of their professionals. Take it as a complement.

Alternatively, you are playing from a modern typesetting of the music which has some extra notes added to detect that you are making a derivative work through your performance, like how map makers add "trap streets" to their works. Being serious, though, I believe that a typesetting of a piece of public domain music can be eligible for copyright, but I don't believe that a performance from that typesetting can count…

This isn't done. The well-known repertoire are scrutinized note-for-note.

Re: Twitch suspends DragonForce guitarist Herman Li for playing his own music

#117

Post by thefounder »

slightwinder wrote: post #70

This is old news and it was wrong. This happend at the height of a new wave of DMCA claims, so people simply assumed this had to be the reason. But it turned out later he showed some nudity, for which he got the usual 3 day-ban. Also, DMCA claims are not automatically leading to bans. It must have a certain level of harm ir repeated behaviour. And live-DMCA-checks are not active yet it seems, so usually the vod or cl…

What's wrong with nudity?

Re: Twitch suspends DragonForce guitarist Herman Li for playing his own music

#118

Post by satyrnein »

Blikkentrekker wrote: post #112
satyrnein wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, to clarify, I meant if he owns the composition. It's possible a publisher owns or co-owns it, even if he wrote it (but unlikely that a label would).

Surely it would be expected of a band of Dragonforce 's size that the label would own the rights and not the members?

Labels typically own the rights to the recordings, not the compositions. If the band wrote their own composition, they either retain the rights to them or they may have sold them (partially or in full) to another party, typically a publisher.

Re: Twitch suspends DragonForce guitarist Herman Li for playing his own music

#119

Post by ghusbands »

thefounder wrote: post #117
slightwinder wrote: post #70

This is old news and it was wrong. This happend at the height of a new wave of DMCA claims, so people simply assumed this had to be the reason. But it turned out later he showed some nudity, for which he got the usual 3 day-ban. Also, DMCA claims are not automatically leading to bans. It must have a certain level of harm ir repeated behaviour. And live-DMCA-checks are not active yet it seems, so usually the vod or cl…

What's wrong with nudity?

It's against the terms of use for Twitch [1]:

"Nudity and sexually explicit content or activities, such as pornography, sexual acts or intercourse, and sexual services, are prohibited."

[1] https://www.twitch.tv/p/legal/community-guidelines/

Re: Twitch suspends DragonForce guitarist Herman Li for playing his own music

#120

Post by LordDragonfang »

codingdave wrote: post #57
libertine wrote: post #31

When will platforms start to be charged for their mistakes? Pretty sure if they had to make financial compensations for their mistakes, they would start using humans more often to support this crap automated system. You would start to see more people being able to reach human support, getting human replies, etc. Would be pretty easy - for each day without reply, fine X. For X day of suspension, fine Y. And so on. If…

You make them pay by abandoning them as a customer. Stop streaming. Stop watching. Fining businesses who make mistakes is a dangerous path. That means anyone new to the industry who tosses up their first project is open to getting fined if they make a mistake. It also means there is either some organization in charge of being the watchdog for the industry with power to just apply fines to companies as they see fit...…

>Stop streaming

And if it's your livelyhood, go where? The next two most dominant rivals in the area of streaming are literally the two you call out later in your post, Facebook and Google. You're not going to make money by trying to get people to get people to switch to your niche streaming service that no one has heard of and will close up shop in a year.

Individual action, especially consumer action, has never been a driving force in effecting change. If it were, companies like Nestle, which you hear about the despicable practices of almost weekly on commenting sites like reddit, wouldn't still be market leaders. Legislation, litigation, and most importantly, collective action are the only ways to change things like this. Don't tell people to boycott a service, get them to unionize their de facto employees.

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