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Apple’s A14 Packs 134M Transistors/mm²

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Re: Apple’s A14 Packs 134M Transistors/mm²

#111

I found this to be a pretty confusing article. I get that they are analyzing the new node, which is great, but the editorializing seems a bit premature to me. I also don't think the author understood the TMSC presentation. TMSC clearly said that is used a "model" of a typical SOC of 60% logic, 30% SRAM, and 10% analog. Then they said that for each category of thing, you could expect 1.8x, 1.35x, and 1.2x of shrink. I…

TSMC has a monopoly on the highest performance processes - so the price won't drop till there is competition. Seeing how the competition is falling behind, that will be a while...

I was referring to this: https://www.anandtech.com/show/15538/samsung-starts-mass-pro...

Which has Samsung in production of their 7nm node this year as well.

Re: Apple’s A14 Packs 134M Transistors/mm²

#112
post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Buy an iPad pro because time and time again we have seen that optimizing is not a priority for the majority of business. I think the cynicism here is that if only these frontend developers would just learn to optimize we would all finally be better off. I think there are two factors that push against this though. First, if you learn to optimize then you can charge more for your labor, and you will likely get a job so…

Amazon and Google have published a truly tremendous amount of data about how fraction-of-a-second differences in loading time can have outsized impacts on bounce rate. It continues to be amazing to me that so many businesses just completely fail at understanding this basic truth. Speed is a competitive advantage. Doubly so when many of your competitors don't realize it.

The catch is that you're looking at this through the lens of "comparison shopping between two user-facing apps", decided on by a random consumer out on the net. In that context, it's absolutely true. I personally experienced this with google vs. all of the other portal search sites like yahoo, excite, etc - google loaded much faster, and on my shitty 28.8 modem that was a matter of minutes, sometimes. So I switched to google.

The thing is - most web software isn't comparison shopped. It's developed on contract. I work at a company that does a lot of this, and, hypothetically, maybe we'd get hired to do an internal app for some retailer (imagine Best Buy or Walmart). When you build something like that, there's a gun to your head about time-to-deliver. They don't care if it's good — it's just got to meet a "reasonably decent" metric of quality. The only thing they really care about is getting it released on a certain timetable.

And all of this is because of contract law - timetables are provable breach-of-contract. You promised you'd make something by February, but you weren't done until April - that's something that's a provable failure-to-deliver. That's got financial penalties. But quality? Quality's gotta be astoundingly bad to be "provable". "Lag" or "the site's kinda slow" doesn't hold up in a lawsuit. (These things rarely lead to lawsuits, but do lead to 'punishment' by a refusal to renew a contract, knowing that the contractor can't sue the company because the contractor provably failed to deliver what was agreed on.) So they optimize for what's punishable according to the terms of the contract.

That's why all of this corporate enterprise software sucks - because nobody gets punished if it's slow or crappy; they just get punished if it's late, or if it's provably broken, because that's the stuff that's easy to pull out of a contract for.

Re: Apple’s A14 Packs 134M Transistors/mm²

#113
post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Buy an iPad pro because time and time again we have seen that optimizing is not a priority for the majority of business. I think the cynicism here is that if only these frontend developers would just learn to optimize we would all finally be better off. I think there are two factors that push against this though. First, if you learn to optimize then you can charge more for your labor, and you will likely get a job so…

Amazon and Google have published a truly tremendous amount of data about how fraction-of-a-second differences in loading time can have outsized impacts on bounce rate. It continues to be amazing to me that so many businesses just completely fail at understanding this basic truth. Speed is a competitive advantage. Doubly so when many of your competitors don't realize it.

I’ve talked to the Google people on these reports — the effect is real when the resulting page loads are under about 1.8s all in. No difference between 7s and 3s. Big difference between 2s and 1s. At least in eCommerce.

Re: Apple’s A14 Packs 134M Transistors/mm²

#114

I found this to be a pretty confusing article. I get that they are analyzing the new node, which is great, but the editorializing seems a bit premature to me. I also don't think the author understood the TMSC presentation. TMSC clearly said that is used a "model" of a typical SOC of 60% logic, 30% SRAM, and 10% analog. Then they said that for each category of thing, you could expect 1.8x, 1.35x, and 1.2x of shrink. I…

The column is explicitly labelled "effective vs theoretical" though. There is nothing misleading there.

This is where I believe the author goes astray: "Despite TSMC claiming a 1.8x shrink for N5, Apple only achieves a 1.49x shrink."

TSMC does NOT say they have a 1.8x shrink for N5, they say for LOGIC you can get that, but for SRAM and Analog the results are 1.35x and 1.2x. Had they summed that together for a "typical SOC", which they also discuss (and one presumes that Apple makes typical SOCs) then the "theoretical" shrink is 1.57x for SoCs.

The challenge is that whereas at one time the node size was that of a "gate" (which could be 4 transistors), in a marketing race for smaller numbers fabs started emphasizing "feature" size.

Because of this change, the "theoretical shrink" is a function of what kinds of circuits you're putting down. Pure logic? You get one number, two gates connected together for a flip-flop, you get another number, a voltage regulator, or ADC filter, you get another number.

So doing the analysis the author claims to do, can ONLY be done if you know what percentage of the part you are making on the new process is what. I am under the impression that they missed that.

Re: Apple’s A14 Packs 134M Transistors/mm²

#115
post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apple doesn't have an exclusive on 5 nm; it's also being used by Kirin 9000, Snapdragon 875, some Exynos, and a future Dimensity SoC.

I'm not sure how to square that claim with this sort of article: https://www.extremetech.com/computing/315186-apple-books-tsm...

Rumors. Qualcomm is using TMSC 5nm for the x60 this year to be used in products Q1 next year. Same rumors. Though Apple will be using X60 on iPhone 13, so maybe a relation?

Re: Apple’s A14 Packs 134M Transistors/mm²

#116

I was curious and looked up how this compared to the computer my family had 20 years ago: a Dell XPS tower with a Pentium III. The A14 has more than 1,000x as many transistors as what Intel was doing 20 years ago on a 128mm^2 die. Pretty incredible.

Had that same computer when I was a senior in high school 1999

Re: Apple’s A14 Packs 134M Transistors/mm²

#117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

TSMC has a monopoly on the highest performance processes - so the price won't drop till there is competition. Seeing how the competition is falling behind, that will be a while...

I was referring to this: https://www.anandtech.com/show/15538/samsung-starts-mass-pro... Which has Samsung in production of their 7nm node this year as well.

If I understand correctly the current GPU supply shortage for Nvidia is caused by Samsung and they are forced to return to TSMC, meanwhile TSMC is supplying AMD and Apple just fine - so is Samsung really a viable alternative ?

Re: Apple’s A14 Packs 134M Transistors/mm²

#118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The column is explicitly labelled "effective vs theoretical" though. There is nothing misleading there.

This is where I believe the author goes astray: "Despite TSMC claiming a 1.8x shrink for N5, Apple only achieves a 1.49x shrink." TSMC does NOT say they have a 1.8x shrink for N5, they say for LOGIC you can get that, but for SRAM and Analog the results are 1.35x and 1.2x. Had they summed that together for a "typical SOC", which they also discuss (and one presumes that Apple makes typical SOCs) then the "theoretical"…

[deleted]

Re: Apple’s A14 Packs 134M Transistors/mm²

#119

I think this is cool if they’re the future of the Mac, but aren’t these chips just wasted in the iPad? I say this as an iPad Pro (1st-gen) owner ... it’s already way more processing power than I can really use, because after trying for months to get a sensible workflow going (mostly based around Pythonista, Editorial and RealVNC) I’ve relegated it to a OneNote and Netflix machine. What’s the point other than the cool…

Even if assuming they were wasted, lower the production cost for everyone else that is not wasting them

Re: Apple’s A14 Packs 134M Transistors/mm²

#120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

TSMC has a monopoly on the highest performance processes - so the price won't drop till there is competition. Seeing how the competition is falling behind, that will be a while...

I was referring to this: https://www.anandtech.com/show/15538/samsung-starts-mass-pro... Which has Samsung in production of their 7nm node this year as well.

Samsung's process seems to be consistently DOA.... by the time it is stabilized, its already behind everyone else.

Consequently, almost all of Nvidia's current troubles stem from being unable to do all of their fabrication at TSMC, and the yields for Samsung 8nm being very poor.

Nvidia recently canceled the 2x RAM variants of their 3070 and 3080 cards (and not because of insufficient GDDR6x, only the 3090 takes that), have stopped shipments of GPUs for new cards (they are only continuing to ship to fill existing orders), pushed the 3070 release date until after the RDNA2 announcement; most of this stems from Samsung's poor yields no matter how inexpensively Samsung is selling those wafers for.

This also isn't the first time Nvidia used the Samsung footgun.

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