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Apple’s A14 Packs 134M Transistors/mm²

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Re: Apple’s A14 Packs 134M Transistors/mm²

#51
post #20

I really appreciate this analysis and the straightforward top line number 134e6/mm^2. The usual "node" figure is utterly meaningless; an electrical engineer couldn't care less about "feature" size (whatever that means.) What is the count of discrete components in a given area? There are 40 billion 5nm (the supposed "node" of these chips) squares in a millimeter of area. That's two orders of magnitude more dense than…

A cycle or two ago I asked this same question. Some people seemed to think that such a number would be gamed, but if that's a valid barrier to entry then we will never accomplish anything again, really.

As long as the measure is in mm^2, not mm^3, I think (hope?) that would avoid any perverse incentives against breakthroughs that allow you to add more layers to a chip and still maintain yields.

Re: Apple’s A14 Packs 134M Transistors/mm²

#52
post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Efficiency, performance and cost are strongly related to density. Price less so; that's a function of supply and demand. They are related, of course, but the important stuff can be measured more directly by looking at how well programs work on a given computer. I think it's just a little odd to praise one cherry-picked, arbitrary metric for being less game-able than another cherry-picked, arbitrary metric. Especial…

Are you asserting performance benchmarks aren't gameable?

No.

Re: Apple’s A14 Packs 134M Transistors/mm²

#53

I think this is cool if they’re the future of the Mac, but aren’t these chips just wasted in the iPad? I say this as an iPad Pro (1st-gen) owner ... it’s already way more processing power than I can really use, because after trying for months to get a sensible workflow going (mostly based around Pythonista, Editorial and RealVNC) I’ve relegated it to a OneNote and Netflix machine. What’s the point other than the cool…

Many professionals are using iPad Pro for audio e.g. DAW and video e.g. editing.

What DAW are they using? I use my iPad as a remote for Presonus Studio One sometimes, but I couldn't consider using it as the recording system itself, since the AU and VST accessibility isn't there.

I would also use my iPad as a synthesiser (eg. Magellan) but then record the audio to a "real" computer, ie the Mac, via a recording interface.

Re: Apple’s A14 Packs 134M Transistors/mm²

#54

I think this is cool if they’re the future of the Mac, but aren’t these chips just wasted in the iPad? I say this as an iPad Pro (1st-gen) owner ... it’s already way more processing power than I can really use, because after trying for months to get a sensible workflow going (mostly based around Pythonista, Editorial and RealVNC) I’ve relegated it to a OneNote and Netflix machine. What’s the point other than the cool…

I was just looking into optimising a large web application. I told the customer that using a caching layer such as a CDN would help paper over the worst of the inefficiencies in their application and the network stack. That was true! The download times halved. However, benchmarks with F12 developer tools showed that while downloads reduced from 200ms to 100ms, the overall load times were still seconds, of which about…

Sounds like the argument here is "buy an iPad pro so frontend developers don't need to learn optimization"...?

Re: Apple’s A14 Packs 134M Transistors/mm²

#55
post #8

Foundry sale price of $238/chip seems way too high. See e.g. https://www.cultofmac.com/658650/iphone-11-pro-max-productio... > Apple A13 processor that (is) supposedly is priced at $64.

Yeah, that $238/chip figure can't possibly be right. Apple's putting this chip in a $700 phone with at least a 50% margin. They're not blowing more than half the BoM on the SoC.

The $238/chip figure probably isn't for the A14 specifically, considering that it's a chart from an unrelated report[1]

>The model is based on an imaginary 5nm chip the size of Nvidia's P100 GPU (610 mm2, 90.7 billion transistors at 148.2 MTr/mm2).

[1] https://cset.georgetown.edu/wp-content/uploads/AI-Chips%E2%8...

Re: Apple’s A14 Packs 134M Transistors/mm²

#56

I think this is cool if they’re the future of the Mac, but aren’t these chips just wasted in the iPad? I say this as an iPad Pro (1st-gen) owner ... it’s already way more processing power than I can really use, because after trying for months to get a sensible workflow going (mostly based around Pythonista, Editorial and RealVNC) I’ve relegated it to a OneNote and Netflix machine. What’s the point other than the cool…

[deleted]

Re: Apple’s A14 Packs 134M Transistors/mm²

#57
I found this to be a pretty confusing article. I get that they are analyzing the new node, which is great, but the editorializing seems a bit premature to me.

I also don't think the author understood the TMSC presentation. TMSC clearly said that is used a "model" of a typical SOC of 60% logic, 30% SRAM, and 10% analog. Then they said that for each category of thing, you could expect 1.8x, 1.35x, and 1.2x of shrink. If you do the math, that means an overall shrink for a 'typical' SOC that conforms to their model would be 1.57x (approximately).

That Apple achieved 1.49x would suggest they got 95% of the process shrink effectiveness.

Then there is the cost per die and thus cost per transistor discussion. It is important to remember that this is likely the most expensive these wafers will ever be. The reasoning for that statement is that during a process node life-cycle the cost per wafer is set initially to capture "early movers" (who value density over cost). Much like any product where competition will emerge "later" there is a window early on to recapture value which can pay back your R&D and capital equipment investments. As a result the vendor sets the price as high as possible to make that repayment happen as quickly as possible. Once paid back, the price provides profit as long as it can be supported in the presence of other competitors (in this case, I would guess that role is played by Samsung). The GSA uses to publish price surveys of wafers on various nodes over time but they don't seem to do that any more. Anyway, so the cost per transistor will go down from this point but how much depends on how much margin is in the current wafer price.

So I agree that the cost per transistor is not going down as quickly as it has in the past, and its possible that this node may not get to be as low as the previous node. I'm curious how it compares when you look at 7nm introduction price per transistor vs todays price per transistor. And if you get the same ramp with the 5nm node what that would mean.

Re: Apple’s A14 Packs 134M Transistors/mm²

#58
post #20

I really appreciate this analysis and the straightforward top line number 134e6/mm^2. The usual "node" figure is utterly meaningless; an electrical engineer couldn't care less about "feature" size (whatever that means.) What is the count of discrete components in a given area? There are 40 billion 5nm (the supposed "node" of these chips) squares in a millimeter of area. That's two orders of magnitude more dense than…

The funny thing is is this isn't really Apple's achievement. It's TSMC's achievement. It's also Intel's failure in that they failed to get a similar process working on schedule.

Re: Apple’s A14 Packs 134M Transistors/mm²

#59

I think this is cool if they’re the future of the Mac, but aren’t these chips just wasted in the iPad? I say this as an iPad Pro (1st-gen) owner ... it’s already way more processing power than I can really use, because after trying for months to get a sensible workflow going (mostly based around Pythonista, Editorial and RealVNC) I’ve relegated it to a OneNote and Netflix machine. What’s the point other than the cool…

> I think this is cool if they’re the future of the Mac, but aren’t these chips just wasted in the iPad?

Mostly, but by putting them in iPads and iPhones they have been able to scale their chip development to the levels they need to.

Re: Apple’s A14 Packs 134M Transistors/mm²

#60
post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is apparently the price to assure that Apple is the only purveyor in town with a 5nm process chip. Worth it? Apple thinks so.

Apple doesn't have an exclusive on 5 nm; it's also being used by Kirin 9000, Snapdragon 875, some Exynos, and a future Dimensity SoC.

I'm not sure how to square that claim with this sort of article:

https://www.extremetech.com/computing/315186-apple-books-tsm...

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