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Why are Amnesty International monitors not able to observe the Assange hearing?

amnesty.org

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Re: Why are Amnesty International monitors not able to observe the Assange hearing?

#111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's debatable but even if true doesn't mean he's not one of the most valuable and important journalists in history

"One of the most valuable and important journalists in history" is quite a grand description. Can you clarify what makes him so special? I worry this is something where people's opinions have escalated far beyond what the underlying facts support in a cycle of outrage and counter-outrage.

I would argue the scope of the stories Wikileaks has broken are of extreme historical importance. I would also consider how he has stuck to his principles despite years of house arrest and now international prosecution also historic in a journalistic context.

Given the same treatment now do you think Chris Cuomo, Rachael Maddow, or Don Lemmon would have done?

Re: Why are Amnesty International monitors not able to observe the Assange hearing?

#112

I am baffled to see that the majority of the comments here are at best showing no support for what Assange did and at worst are trying to find excuses not to be disturbed in their belief that since we are in a democracy hence everything that's happening is normal. I thought the people here had a sharper political view on what kind of society we could/should live in but I just read people that are always in a hurry to…

I'm old. I opted out of the order as a solution and I orbit around it making incursions of support and encouragement. Try techniques described in the Undercommons by Moten/Harney. Spend your attention carefully.

nods

Re: Why are Amnesty International monitors not able to observe the Assange hearing?

#113
post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'm not seeing that in the comments I'm seeing it everytime someone prefaces their comment with something along the lines of: "I'm not an Assange supporter But ..." in fact you're comment is really no different: > not supporting what Assange did, I didn't Are people worried the FBI will break down their door, if they don't put up the disclaimer?

>Are people worried the FBI will break down their door, if they don't put up the disclaimer? I can't speak for anybody else, but I consider it a valid worry

This.

Ok perhaps not FBI breaking down your door at 3am, but for sure "earn your place" on a list, in some three-letter-dept, and your name will stay there forever. And one day, on your way back from vacation to country XYZ that is not the favorite of the sitting (at the time) president you may be greeted by people in uniforms wanting to scan you laptop, phone, etc.

It has happened before, so yes it is a valid worry.

Re: Why are Amnesty International monitors not able to observe the Assange hearing?

#114
I am only lurking on this but Craig Murray (ex British diplomat) has a good blog following the daily ongoings on this trial.

https://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/category/uncategoriz...

It seems to be incredibly murky and quite frankly, pretty disturbing...

Re: Why are Amnesty International monitors not able to observe the Assange hearing?

#115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They're signaling that publishing secrets is a crime; that's an objective fact, nobody is arguing against that I think. What's at stake here is whether the crime was justifiable and that it did more good (in exposing the US' war crimes) than bad (sharing state secrets and possibly risking informants). Disclaimer: superficial layman's take on matters.

>They're signaling that publishing secrets is a crime; that's an objective fact Stating things are facts don't make them facts; thats an objective fact. Anyway, I used to read Assange when he was more of a crypto/phreak, and he is, for lack of a better term, a bit of a fucking asshole. That said though, and I'm going to make a controversial statement here, but one I think is truthful, but the biggest problem now with…

I fully agree with your assessment, especially after seeing the Hamilton 68 "Russian backed media" dashboard that included a lot of progressive and alternative media, directed by a mix of DNC elite and Neo-cons, which was created by the orwellian sounding "Alliance for Securing Democracy".

It's obvious that the RussiaGate campaign is really a smear campaign used to take down enemies left and right if you pay close attention, e.g. used against Bernie Sanders who is obviously not a Russian shill, but I wish someone would put together a sourced timeline detailing the nature of the campaign, as I've got so many smart friends who fell for it and can't be convinced otherwise in a two minute discussion over cocktails.

Re: Why are Amnesty International monitors not able to observe the Assange hearing?

#116
post #97
post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, but for the fact that Melzer is full of shit. He's basically a demagogue; making many vague, unsubstantiated, unverifiable or nonfalsifiable claims. Turns out that Melzer's only concrete accusation is based on a misreading of evidence at best; the one against the Swedish police, of how they supposedly tampered with (even fabricated ) one of the testimonies. The evidence for that is inconclusive, Melzer was poss…

The United Nations Special Rapporteur on Torture and other Cruel, Inhuman or Degrading Treatment or Punishment is demagogue? Pretty bug accusations. And downplaying rape? Did Assange force or drug the women to have sex with him?

What kind of argument are you making with your first sentence?

Regarding the rape, this is what Wikipedia has to say about it:

> On 20 August 2010, two women, a 26-year-old living in Enköping and a 31-year-old living in Stockholm, reported to the Swedish police that Assange had engaged in unprotected sexual activity with them that violated the scope of their consent, also because one woman was asleep in one case.

Re: Why are Amnesty International monitors not able to observe the Assange hearing?

#118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The NY Times has a history of trying to smear Assange. The day after they began publishing the Iraq and Afghan War Logs, provided to them by Assange, the NY Times prominently ran a hit piece about Assange. Here's the opening: > Julian Assange moves like a hunted man. In a noisy Ethiopian restaurant in London’s rundown Paddington district, he pitches his voice barely above a whisper to foil the Western intelligence ag…

I just fundamentally disagree with your characterization of "hit piece" here. The personality and behavior of a source is very relevant information, especially when they're vouching for the authenticity of leaked documents. Maybe his behavior was a reasonable reaction to legitimate fears, but that's a judgment call that readers of the NYT should be able to make for themselves - reporters should not be in the business…

There was no question of the authenticity of the documents. The piece was completely unnecessary. Julian Assange himself is irrelevant to the stories that the NY Times published, and readers did not need to know that the NY Times considers Assange paranoid in order to evaluate US military logs. If a NY Times reporter broke a big story, would the NY Times run it next to a smear piece about that reporter's personal habits?

Re: Why are Amnesty International monitors not able to observe the Assange hearing?

#119
post #97
post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, but for the fact that Melzer is full of shit. He's basically a demagogue; making many vague, unsubstantiated, unverifiable or nonfalsifiable claims. Turns out that Melzer's only concrete accusation is based on a misreading of evidence at best; the one against the Swedish police, of how they supposedly tampered with (even fabricated ) one of the testimonies. The evidence for that is inconclusive, Melzer was poss…

The United Nations Special Rapporteur on Torture and other Cruel, Inhuman or Degrading Treatment or Punishment is demagogue? Pretty bug accusations. And downplaying rape? Did Assange force or drug the women to have sex with him?

> Did Assange force or drug the women to have sex with him?

In many places rape is defined as sex without consent, and force is not required. England is one such place. In some places consent is nullified by actions such as removing a condom without telling someone. Again, this is the case in England.

However, Assange is also accused of using force.

https://www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWHC/Admin/2011/2849.html

> As regards offence 1, AA said in her statement that she had offered the use of her apartment to Mr Assange from 11-14 August 2010 when she was away. She had returned on 13 August 2010 earlier than planned and then met him for the first time. They went out to dinner and returned to her apartment. As they drank tea, he started to fondle her leg which she welcomed. Everything happened fast. Mr Assange ripped off her clothes and at the same time broke her necklace. She tried to put her clothes on again, but Mr Assange had immediately removed them again. She had thought that she did not really want to continue, but it was too late to tell Mr Assange to stop as she had consented so far. Accordingly she let Mr Assange take off all her clothes. Thereafter they laid down on the bed naked with AA on her back and Mr Assange on top. Mr Assange wanted to insert his penis into her vagina, but she did not want him to do that as he was not using a condom. She therefore squeezed her legs together in order to avoid him penetrating her. She tried to reach several times for a condom which Mr Assange had stopped her from doing by holding her arms and bending her legs open and trying to penetrate her with his penis without a condom. Mr Assange must have known it was a condom AA was reaching for and he had held her arms to stop her. After a while Mr Assange had asked AA what she was doing and why she was squeezing her legs together; AA told him she wanted him to put on a condom before he entered her. Mr Assange let go of AA's arms and put on a condom which AA found for him. AA felt a strong sense of unexpressed resistance on Mr Assange' s part against using a condom.

> In relation to this and the other offences, Mr Emmerson QC put forward what he said would be a fair description of the conduct which, if adopted, would show that there was no dual criminality. In summary, his contention was that the alleged offending conduct had been taken out of context; in relation to offence 1 that context was consensual sexual activity (undressing and lying naked on top of AA)) with the joint expectation that sexual intercourse would take place, followed by sexual intercourse taking place consensually, once he had used a condom. The offending conduct alleged was no more than a brief period, which could readily be seen as a mere misunderstanding. During that brief period, AA did not object to the continued naked contact as the apparent precursor to intercourse; AA did not wish to proceed immediately for a reason not immediately obvious but shortly thereafter rectified. It was also of importance in relation to the mens rea, since for dual criminality, the facts alleged had to impel the conclusion that Mr Assange had no reasonable belief that AA was consenting to what had happened.

> It seems to us that the conduct described as offence 1 fairly and properly describes the conduct as set out in AA's statement in relation to what is complained of restricting her movement by violence. We accept that Mr Assange subsequently allowed AA to move so she could find a condom for him to use, but at the point in time to which the offence relates, we do not read anything in her statement to indicate consent to his restraining her. Indeed her statement indicates precisely the opposite at the point of time to which it relates. It of course might well be argued that his subsequent decision to let go of her might indicate a lack of coercion or consent to what followed, but at the point of time to which the offence relates, we consider the conduct of which he is charged to have been fairly and accurately described. As we have set out at paragraph 71.v) above, the matters alleged are sufficient, in our view, and to the extent relevant, to impel the inference of knowledge. The context does not change our view.

> It must therefore follow in respect of offence 1 that the challenge made fails, even if the extraneous material was taken into account.

Re: Why are Amnesty International monitors not able to observe the Assange hearing?

#120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"One of the most valuable and important journalists in history" is quite a grand description. Can you clarify what makes him so special? I worry this is something where people's opinions have escalated far beyond what the underlying facts support in a cycle of outrage and counter-outrage.

I would argue the scope of the stories Wikileaks has broken are of extreme historical importance. I would also consider how he has stuck to his principles despite years of house arrest and now international prosecution also historic in a journalistic context. Given the same treatment now do you think Chris Cuomo, Rachael Maddow, or Don Lemmon would have done?

Did he have opportunities to escape house arrest or prosecution by compromising his principles? I agree that Wikileaks has broken a lot of important stories, but many outlets break important stories - I'd push back just as hard if someone told me that A. G. Sulzberger was one of the most important journalists in history.

I'm not intimately familiar with those three particular journalists, but it's far from unheard of for American journalists to go to jail protecting their principles. And I'd point out that it's even more common for them to argue for their principles in court, which Assange is trying his hardest to avoid.

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