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Why OKRs might not work at your company

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Re: Why OKRs might not work at your company

#111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is objectively false as they have developed many of the most successful products on this planet. There are hundred of web mail products but gmail is the best. Google Maps is the best in class, other great products are Google Earth, Analytics, YouTube, Cloud, Android and many more. Yes, you can find flaws in any of those but it's also hard to find better products in the same category. Google is not in any way "te…

youtube android and earth are acquisitions, Cloud is nothing compared to its competition, GMail is almost 2 decades old. In the last decade, I can't remember a single innovative google original product, or some copy-cat product that is better than the competition

> Cloud is nothing compared to its competition

I've been working with GCP a lot during the last two years, and I think the experience is actually quite a bit better than people generally assume or adoption numbers suggest. It's probably not a great fit for large companies with really big engineering departments building really complex systems, but getting started on GCP as a small to medium org is a breeze, products at different levels of abstraction complement each other well (so it's easy to grow) and everything seems to be built to be minimum hassle and require a lot less fiddling by an engineer to get going than the corresponding AWS product. Much better web console than AWS, great K8S offering, BigQuery can do machine learning nowadays, which is actually usable for simple tasks. Everything has lots of sane defaults, it's usually only a couple of clicks to spin up pretty much any resource; in AWS this tends to be a huge pain.

Although, if you're in the EU and bound to a strict interpretation of GDPR, then your experience is going to be absolutely miserable, because there's no way to actually restrict data to stay within the EU for the vast majority of products. A lot of the serverless products has something like "data may be processed in US West or global" hidden in their docs (which legal tells me is a big no-no), and while you can set allowed regions, even BigQuery violates that silently, so that's useless and dangerous as well.

So if they were to get better at selling what they have (which they really, really suck at; we're using them not because, but in spite of, their sales efforts) and maybe discover Europe one day, then it'll be a very strong contender for AWS/Azure.

Re: Why OKRs might not work at your company

#112

My CEO tried to explain to me that the "key result" part of OKRs didn't need to be measurable and then cited my colleague's as better examples despite none of them having written anything that could be used to hold them accountable. When I ask him if he's read High Output Management he just says "It's on my reading list". I'm leaving soon.

I've definitely seen it where objectives don't need to be measurable, but the results are what you measure to let you know if you're going in the right direction. Sometimes you might have objectives that look like results (like a top-line revenue target), but yeah... Good luck :)

Re: Why OKRs might not work at your company

#113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Android wasn't built by Google. It was the result of an acquisition. Same with YouTube. Same with Google Earth. Heck, even Google Docs was the result of them acquiring Writely. Maybe it's more accurate to say that Google are one of the best companies in the world at buying products.

Yeah, except one counterfactual scenario: Andy Rubin actually tried to sell Android to Samsung. Let's assume the deal was made; do you really think Android would grow into this dominant position at Samsung's hands? I know Samsung very well and I am 99.9% sure that it will be a miserable failure. All those acquired products were nearly non-existent compared to post-Google era. The founders may deserve some credits, bu…

> do you really think Android would grow into this dominant position at Samsung's hands? I know Samsung very well and I am 99.9% sure that it will be a miserable failure.

And maybe that would have been for the best. If we look, within a year of the HTC Dream (G1, First commercial Android phone) Nokia released the N900, an amazing device running real Linux.

We could have had Maemo instead of Android.

Re: Why OKRs might not work at your company

#114

I've worked with OKR's at large e-commerce companies, small tech incubators, consultancy firms and "Unicorn" stage startups. At each stop OKR's were absolutely worthless. What I really appreciate in reading this article is that they were absolutely worthless for the reasons this author has stated: there was no real empowerment behind them. Most often they were used for personal development since I had no meaningful s…

This is totally my experience with OKRs as well. At my last company they were a feeble attempt by micromanagers to manage a bunch of teams into being self-managing. But at the end of the day they were giving us solutions not problems to solve, which obviously didn't work out well. Most of the software we wrote missed the mark and didn't get used.

Re: Why OKRs might not work at your company

#115
> ... still continue to tell them the solutions they are supposed to deliver – nearly always in the form of a roadmap of features and projects with expected release dates.

This has always been my experience with OKRs. They were implemented by directionless companies with weak management as an attempt to bring structure, but the real reason there was no structure or coherence is that nobody in leadership agreed about what the company should do.

They ended up being such vague, arbitrary, and ambiguous goals, like "dominate this sector" or "become a leader in that vertical", or "hire x engineers by y time" that they were effectively meaningless. What does dominate mean? What are these new engineers going to do once they're here? Nobody had answers to these questions, yet achieving the OKRs was paramount.

I'm sure there are examples where they work well, but I suspect this author is onto something and the companies that use them successfully would be well managed with or without them.

Re: Why OKRs might not work at your company

#116

It feels like OP has made a bit of a straw man out of OKRs. More charitably, perhaps we did not get our information from the same place - all I know about OKRs is from reading "Measure What Matters" and implementing it in my own company. Reading this article makes me feel like someone took an incredibly simple idea and decided that what it needs is more complication. From TFA: "most companies are not set up to effect…

> all I know about OKRs is from reading "Measure What Matters" and implementing it in my own company. Reading this article makes me feel like someone took an incredibly simple idea and decided that what it needs is more complication. I know this is HN and you could totally be Drew Houston; but I'm going to go out on a limb and say that your company has fewer than 500 employees. The problems the OP is describing are,…

Nowhere in the book is it pitched as a tool you roll out to a bunch of MBAs and hope that good things happen - it's never about out-of-touch managers demanding results. If someone cascades objectives without also cascading planning and estimation, are they not simply a bad manager?

What the book DOES say is that you should not create such a fear of failure that no-one will set stretch goals, and that OKR results should not replace individual performance evaluations. In short, OKRs are what you seem to think they are, plus the culture that makes it possible. If an organisation doesn't get that right, are they doing OKRs?

If your organisation does not allow developers to push back against impossible objectives, do you not perhaps have bigger problems that OKRs (or any other system) can't fix for you? Why would you blame OKRs - would any other system not also be painful when a company has become so dysfunctional? Also, did you know that all objectives don't need to cascade - some can be set bottom-up?

You're going to call No True Scotsman fallacy, and I'm going to call Straw Man, so I'm done with this thread. Perhaps I just fell for John Doerr's elaborately constructed fantasy that he uses to sell books. But right now it seems like a useful tool to keep a company on track, and I'll keep adapting it as the company grows.

Re: Why OKRs might not work at your company

#117
post #81

OKRs seem a brilliant way to silo your teams and shut down any cross team collaboration. OKRs become a shield to deflect any external request that doesn't precisely align with a measure. Not a fan.

So you believe collaboration is good, even when it comes at the cost of measurable results? I feel the opposite. There is too much cross team collaboration that "feels good, doesn't do good". OKRs cuts through the BS, and makes you evaluate if your collaboration is actually doing anything measurable. Focus typically has this effect.

No, I believe OKRs kill collaboration - nothing more nothing less.

But furthermore I think your comment is suggestive of the "You can't manage what you can't measure" fallacy that underpins OKRs.

Re: Why OKRs might not work at your company

#118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So you believe collaboration is good, even when it comes at the cost of measurable results? I feel the opposite. There is too much cross team collaboration that "feels good, doesn't do good". OKRs cuts through the BS, and makes you evaluate if your collaboration is actually doing anything measurable. Focus typically has this effect.

No, I believe OKRs kill collaboration - nothing more nothing less. But furthermore I think your comment is suggestive of the "You can't manage what you can't measure" fallacy that underpins OKRs.

It’s tough to collaborate when nobody has a plan.

Re: Why OKRs might not work at your company

#119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> all I know about OKRs is from reading "Measure What Matters" and implementing it in my own company. Reading this article makes me feel like someone took an incredibly simple idea and decided that what it needs is more complication. I know this is HN and you could totally be Drew Houston; but I'm going to go out on a limb and say that your company has fewer than 500 employees. The problems the OP is describing are,…

Nowhere in the book is it pitched as a tool you roll out to a bunch of MBAs and hope that good things happen - it's never about out-of-touch managers demanding results. If someone cascades objectives without also cascading planning and estimation, are they not simply a bad manager? What the book DOES say is that you should not create such a fear of failure that no-one will set stretch goals, and that OKR results shou…

I'll add to this thread that I was largely against OKRs, having seen them implemented in the style of "we need a quantitative measurement for success so let's make something up hastily", only to fall prey to Goodhart's Law[1].

But John Doerr's book introduced me to the bridge of concepts that I was not seeing: in a healthy setup, we are first and foremost focused on a qualitative objectives and THEN we attempt to model that fuzzy feeling with a quantitative measure (the "key result") that should reflect success. It takes several iterations in order to come up with a matching measurement, and even then we need to constantly re-evaluate whether the measurement is appropriate or if is devolving into a numbers game devoid of true objective.

In other words the full acronym is OAMBKY, or "Objectives, AS MEASURED BY Key Results". But that doesn't roll off the tongue quite as well.

So in that light, OKRs are a useful tool IF AND ONLY IF leadership—as well as the whole team—are focused on the philosophical, qualitative goal and are all aware that the measurement is only an imperfect proxy that is contantly re-evaluated to help us better assess the goal; not a goal unto itself. But that takes real leadership to drive that message (as well as avoiding setting up misguided incentives).

[1] When a measure becomes a target, it ceases to be a good measure.

Re: Why OKRs might not work at your company

#120

It feels like OP has made a bit of a straw man out of OKRs. More charitably, perhaps we did not get our information from the same place - all I know about OKRs is from reading "Measure What Matters" and implementing it in my own company. Reading this article makes me feel like someone took an incredibly simple idea and decided that what it needs is more complication. From TFA: "most companies are not set up to effect…

I am curious about your perspective. I work in a large-ish company (few 1000s people), I am managing ~25 people and this is the first organization where I used OKRs. I found them pretty worthless myself, and for similar reasons as the OT.

Fundamentally, OKRs only make sense if your organization is focused on outcomes, not on output. And underlying that, that's really about the culture in your org. It requires a good executive and sr management team to actually cascade the OKR into non direct financial terms. E.g. if your product objective is to increase retention by X, how do you translate this into a strategy ?

Also, OKRs don't make much sense if product/engineering are run separately. This is still extremely common outside of tech companies. The cascading, which I considered as one of the most fundamental difference compared to traditional management by objective, is often a productivity killer, because 2. If you do OKRs every quarter, and you have 3-4 levels to cascade to, you're gonna get your OKRs end of first month, which means you realistically only really have 6 weeks left in your quarter.

Finally, Measure what matters, I don't understand that book. I found it completely worthless as an Eng. Manager, with absolutely 0 actionable insight. It could have been 5 pages. The famous example of a football team is the only example that actually has enough details to explain things. On similar topics, high output management, or even hard things about hard things, were much more useful for a middle manager like me.

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