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Why OKRs might not work at your company

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Re: Why OKRs might not work at your company

#101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This. Google seems to not have anyone with a cohesive vision or even anyone that knows how to build a platform or maintain a product. I personally would like to know what's going on with the product owners at Google, because it really seems like none of them talk to each other. Google is a fantastic engineering company, but terrible at building products.

This is objectively false as they have developed many of the most successful products on this planet. There are hundred of web mail products but gmail is the best. Google Maps is the best in class, other great products are Google Earth, Analytics, YouTube, Cloud, Android and many more. Yes, you can find flaws in any of those but it's also hard to find better products in the same category. Google is not in any way "te…

youtube android and earth are acquisitions, Cloud is nothing compared to its competition, GMail is almost 2 decades old.

In the last decade, I can't remember a single innovative google original product, or some copy-cat product that is better than the competition

Re: Why OKRs might not work at your company

#102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This. Google seems to not have anyone with a cohesive vision or even anyone that knows how to build a platform or maintain a product. I personally would like to know what's going on with the product owners at Google, because it really seems like none of them talk to each other. Google is a fantastic engineering company, but terrible at building products.

This is objectively false as they have developed many of the most successful products on this planet. There are hundred of web mail products but gmail is the best. Google Maps is the best in class, other great products are Google Earth, Analytics, YouTube, Cloud, Android and many more. Yes, you can find flaws in any of those but it's also hard to find better products in the same category. Google is not in any way "te…

Android wasn't built by Google. It was the result of an acquisition. Same with YouTube. Same with Google Earth. Heck, even Google Docs was the result of them acquiring Writely.

Maybe it's more accurate to say that Google are one of the best companies in the world at buying products.

Re: Why OKRs might not work at your company

#103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is objectively false as they have developed many of the most successful products on this planet. There are hundred of web mail products but gmail is the best. Google Maps is the best in class, other great products are Google Earth, Analytics, YouTube, Cloud, Android and many more. Yes, you can find flaws in any of those but it's also hard to find better products in the same category. Google is not in any way "te…

Android wasn't built by Google. It was the result of an acquisition. Same with YouTube. Same with Google Earth. Heck, even Google Docs was the result of them acquiring Writely. Maybe it's more accurate to say that Google are one of the best companies in the world at buying products.

Yeah, except one counterfactual scenario: Andy Rubin actually tried to sell Android to Samsung. Let's assume the deal was made; do you really think Android would grow into this dominant position at Samsung's hands? I know Samsung very well and I am 99.9% sure that it will be a miserable failure.

All those acquired products were nearly non-existent compared to post-Google era. The founders may deserve some credits, but it's mostly Google's job that bring them into the real products. Let us not be that idea guy; what really matters to success is execution.

EDIT: typo

Re: Why OKRs might not work at your company

#104

It feels like OP has made a bit of a straw man out of OKRs. More charitably, perhaps we did not get our information from the same place - all I know about OKRs is from reading "Measure What Matters" and implementing it in my own company. Reading this article makes me feel like someone took an incredibly simple idea and decided that what it needs is more complication. From TFA: "most companies are not set up to effect…

> all I know about OKRs is from reading "Measure What Matters" and implementing it in my own company. Reading this article makes me feel like someone took an incredibly simple idea and decided that what it needs is more complication.

I know this is HN and you could totally be Drew Houston; but I'm going to go out on a limb and say that your company has fewer than 500 employees.

The problems the OP is describing are, in my opinion, usually present at a large, bureaucratic company. There is no strict size definition for this (I've seen incredibly bureaucratic 50-person startups), but Dunbar's number [1] is a good rule of thumb.

> You WILL fail at your first few OKR cycles, but you're supposed to use those experiences to change your company into one that CAN set and achieve objectives.

Once you get into a bureaucratic company, it's largely about avoiding failure or the perception thereof. Since you own your company, it's easy for you to take this overall view of "if it failed, it failed". Any mid-level manager or individual contributor is going to be incentivized to avoid the perception of failure since it's super-bad in a large organization. Google is often used as a counterexample, but I'm not entirely sure that Google is a company that's good at making products. Also, Google uses the approach of "Hire extremely smart people and throw a truckload of money at them" approach which most companies under discussion (including yours) likely don't; which (IMO) is a far better predictor of success than OKRs.

> The objections to OKRs mentioned in the article don't make sense to me, because it seems to follow a different definition of what OKRs are.

This is the No True Scotsman fallacy. The reality is that the "cascading" nature of OKRs often gets lost in translation and doesn't take into account macro-level changes in your specific vertical. Yes, the company's goal is to become a leader in the field of underwater baskets; how does this translate to me rewriting that terrible frontend code that the cofounder's buddy wrote in 2007 and has never been touched since? Doing that translation will become more difficult year by year due to how technology evolves; and most people in "leadership" suck at doing that translation well. That's what the article is talking about.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunbar%27s_number

Re: Why OKRs might not work at your company

#105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know that they're a fantastic engineering company. I don't know what Google is great at - a few things, which feel like they're successful almost because they're treated as separate from the rest of the organization. OKRs are one of many parts of that, in my opinion.

Google engineering is fantastic and respectable. What gives the impression that it is anything else other than excellent?

Their products, especially their mobile products.

Take, for example, Google Tasks. It has, roughly the same number of features, with the same design as when it launched two years ago. Presumably there are engineers assigned to it. What on earth are they doing? Meanwhile, Microsoft Tasks has subsumed all the features of Wunderlist and has become a far better to-do list app. It's a small example, but it's emblematic.

The same applies to Google Apps. Google Docs, Google Sheets, and the rest haven't had any substantial new features or (more importantly) performance improvements in 10 years. Try loading a hundred-page Word document in Google Docs and it still lags out.

And then there's chat. Oh, lord, Google's chat applications. How many do they have again? Five? Six? Which ones are they canceling this year? Every year, they promise that they're going to "unify" [1] chat, and every year they fail to deliver on that promise.

The only product at Google that actually seems to get updated and maintained is search. Everything else is either a half-baked science experiment that is soon to be canceled or a stagnant leftover without a clear product roadmap. You can quibble that this is bad product management rather than bad engineering, but as far I'm concerned, bad product management is bad engineering.

[1]: https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2020/01/report-google-planni...

Re: Why OKRs might not work at your company

#106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Android wasn't built by Google. It was the result of an acquisition. Same with YouTube. Same with Google Earth. Heck, even Google Docs was the result of them acquiring Writely. Maybe it's more accurate to say that Google are one of the best companies in the world at buying products.

Yeah, except one counterfactual scenario: Andy Rubin actually tried to sell Android to Samsung. Let's assume the deal was made; do you really think Android would grow into this dominant position at Samsung's hands? I know Samsung very well and I am 99.9% sure that it will be a miserable failure. All those acquired products were nearly non-existent compared to post-Google era. The founders may deserve some credits, bu…

off topic question: what’s the idea behind “EDIT: typo”? HN doesn't indicate in any way that your post has been edited and certainly you’re not changing the meaning in a tangible way warranting the etiquette. Nobody is going to fault you for fixing a typo.

Re: Why OKRs might not work at your company

#107
post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, except one counterfactual scenario: Andy Rubin actually tried to sell Android to Samsung. Let's assume the deal was made; do you really think Android would grow into this dominant position at Samsung's hands? I know Samsung very well and I am 99.9% sure that it will be a miserable failure. All those acquired products were nearly non-existent compared to post-Google era. The founders may deserve some credits, bu…

off topic question: what’s the idea behind “EDIT: typo”? HN doesn't indicate in any way that your post has been edited and certainly you’re not changing the meaning in a tangible way warranting the etiquette. Nobody is going to fault you for fixing a typo.

IIRC if you edit after a certain period of time, HN marks your post with an asterisk to indicate that it's been edited.

Re: Why OKRs might not work at your company

#108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Android wasn't built by Google. It was the result of an acquisition. Same with YouTube. Same with Google Earth. Heck, even Google Docs was the result of them acquiring Writely. Maybe it's more accurate to say that Google are one of the best companies in the world at buying products.

Yeah, except one counterfactual scenario: Andy Rubin actually tried to sell Android to Samsung. Let's assume the deal was made; do you really think Android would grow into this dominant position at Samsung's hands? I know Samsung very well and I am 99.9% sure that it will be a miserable failure. All those acquired products were nearly non-existent compared to post-Google era. The founders may deserve some credits, bu…

You're assuming that those products weren't capable of reaching scale without Google's intervention. By that logic, Bill Gates should have sold Microsoft to IBM, because that is the only way Windows would have ever reached scale.

Re: Why OKRs might not work at your company

#109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, except one counterfactual scenario: Andy Rubin actually tried to sell Android to Samsung. Let's assume the deal was made; do you really think Android would grow into this dominant position at Samsung's hands? I know Samsung very well and I am 99.9% sure that it will be a miserable failure. All those acquired products were nearly non-existent compared to post-Google era. The founders may deserve some credits, bu…

You're assuming that those products weren't capable of reaching scale without Google's intervention. By that logic, Bill Gates should have sold Microsoft to IBM, because that is the only way Windows would have ever reached scale.

Google was willing to pay the most. This means it was more confident than anyone else of being able to scale the products.

Re: Why OKRs might not work at your company

#110
post #81

OKRs seem a brilliant way to silo your teams and shut down any cross team collaboration. OKRs become a shield to deflect any external request that doesn't precisely align with a measure. Not a fan.

So you believe collaboration is good, even when it comes at the cost of measurable results?

I feel the opposite. There is too much cross team collaboration that "feels good, doesn't do good". OKRs cuts through the BS, and makes you evaluate if your collaboration is actually doing anything measurable. Focus typically has this effect.

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