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A Database of Fugitive Slave Ads Reveals Thousands of Untold Stories (2018)

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Re: A Database of Fugitive Slave Ads Reveals Thousands of Untold Stories (2018)

#111

Post by deogeo »

jsutton wrote: post #94
weberc2 wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I want to keep this civil and perhaps learn something, but what is the specific objection with respect to complaints of detention? Do folks just want better detention conditions or are we advocating for giving citizenship to everyone who wants it? EDIT: Why the downvotes? I'm asking a genuine question. How did I manage to offend?

Literally no one is proposing giving citizenship to everyone who wants it, so your 'genuine question' comes off as completely insincere at best.

What else would you call DACA, sanctuary cities, or the proposed amnesty for illegal immigrants, then? Eventually, they or their children become citizens, which is little different from the policy you claim literally no one is proposing.

Re: A Database of Fugitive Slave Ads Reveals Thousands of Untold Stories (2018)

#112

Post by anthony_romeo »

tasogare wrote: post #79
ceautery wrote: post #12

> I wonder if any of our current practices will be viewed as barbaric. The US jailed 70,000 migrant children this year. I doubt history will smile on that.

You forget to say these kids didn’t magically lend in jail. They were brought there by their parents that purposely broke immigration laws. They possibly even did it with the idea of appealing to emotion of US citizens to get away with it.

I understand, but why are the conditions of some of these facilities appalling?

Re: A Database of Fugitive Slave Ads Reveals Thousands of Untold Stories (2018)

#113

Post by kingkawn »

altcognito wrote: post #106
gdhbcc wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Probably in much the same way people today cry out about freedom of speech in china, while labeling restrictions on speech at home as acceptable (or not even restrictions at all!) At the end of the day all of these high minded ideals are just excuses to justify ones own actions and world views.

Corporations deciding not to carry your message to a large audience and the government sending you to a political gulag do not seem comparable.

That seeming difference in methodologies of disenfranchisement is where empires are made and broken

Re: A Database of Fugitive Slave Ads Reveals Thousands of Untold Stories (2018)

#114

Post by kingkawn »

tasogare wrote: post #79
ceautery wrote: post #12

> I wonder if any of our current practices will be viewed as barbaric. The US jailed 70,000 migrant children this year. I doubt history will smile on that.

You forget to say these kids didn’t magically lend in jail. They were brought there by their parents that purposely broke immigration laws. They possibly even did it with the idea of appealing to emotion of US citizens to get away with it.

How devious of them to suffer, often because of US intervention in south and Central America, and then tell us about it.

Re: A Database of Fugitive Slave Ads Reveals Thousands of Untold Stories (2018)

#115

Post by Majromax »

pjc50 wrote: post #99
weberc2 wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I want to keep this civil and perhaps learn something, but what is the specific objection with respect to complaints of detention? Do folks just want better detention conditions or are we advocating for giving citizenship to everyone who wants it? EDIT: Why the downvotes? I'm asking a genuine question. How did I manage to offend?

Bit of both, really: the detention conditions are deliberately inhumane, and the separation of families is particularly objectionable. The normal solution to people who breach immigration rules is to deport them. Why has the US given up on deportation? Is it really deemed to be cheaper to just endlessly imprison people? People also want temporary residence to be given to asylum seekers , as specified in the UN Conven…

> Why has the US given up on deportation? Is it really deemed to be cheaper to just endlessly imprison people?

To be fair here, those who support the detention regime are also generally in favour of deportation. However, current US laws require amounts of due process (to evaluate the claim on its merits) that -- combined with current administrative resources -- result in a slow timeline for hearings and deportation.

Therefore, immigration advocates argue for continuing the past practice of release on bail-like conditions, whereas restrictionists argue that such release is itself a threat (e.g., claimants can 'disappear' as illegal immigrants) and detention is necessary notwithstanding the human cost.

In the meantime, there is also evidently an informal argument that detention itself should act as a deterrent, as weaponized cruelty. This argument is legally and morally reprehensible, but as far as I know policymakers have not officially made it.

Re: A Database of Fugitive Slave Ads Reveals Thousands of Untold Stories (2018)

#116

Post by humanrebar »

youdontknowtho wrote: post #66
SaintGhurka wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Your opinion about how other people should conduct their personal lives shouldn't extend to family planning." So the poster shouldn't have an opinion? "Further, experience tells me that granting good faith in these arguments is usually a bad idea." Isn't granting good faith to others' arguments one of the cherished ideals on HN?

Do you grant creationists good faith? How about anti-vaxers? Flat earthers? People have been using free speech absolutism over the last couple of years to popularize poisonous ideas. Should we keep letting that happen? EDIT: Maybe they have an opinion, but frankly that lot don't spin this as an opinion. It's barbarism. It's murder. It's evil. Don't act like their isn't a larger context to all of this.

I just think full term fetuses deserve at least as much legal protection as a pet dog. It's pretty awful to kill a pet when animal shelters are a thing.

I understand the desire to group that opinion along with PizzaGate or some other toxic nonsense. That's exactly the sort of cognitive dissonance I'm talking about.

I am actually sympathetic to and support single mothers in all sorts of ways, not that people should have to qualify philosophical opinions with virtue signalling.

Re: A Database of Fugitive Slave Ads Reveals Thousands of Untold Stories (2018)

#117

Post by humanrebar »

Pigo wrote: post #60
kaffeemitsahne wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I wonder if any of our current practices will be viewed as barbaric. Here we go again, everyone posts their pet not-actually-barbaric thing under the moral authority of people from the future.

By so many metrics our lives are incredible compared to every other period of human history. Of course it's not perfect, there's always room to improve, but there's a stark contrast between how things actually are and how many perceive it to be. Very few problems are as unambiguous as slavery. A lot of our problems are much more nuanced.

Slavery is unambiguous in retrospect. I find the mental gymnastics of the slaveholders to be fascinating and disturbing.

The most barbaric things we do now are probably closely guarded by people as legitimate traditions or rights.

Re: A Database of Fugitive Slave Ads Reveals Thousands of Untold Stories (2018)

#118

Post by roberto »

praptak wrote: post #3

Makes one reflect on how much do we take for granted when it comes to ethics. I remember a (googleable) exchange of letters between the former owner and an ex-slave. The former was genuinely hurt by slave's betrayal and urged them to go back. There were people for whom owning other people was so normalized that they were actually angry at their former slaves. I wonder if any of our current practices will be viewed as…

> I wonder if any of our current practices will be viewed as barbaric.

I became vegan after asking myself that same question.

Re: A Database of Fugitive Slave Ads Reveals Thousands of Untold Stories (2018)

#119

Post by virmundi »

Ididntdothis wrote: post #109
deogeo wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's striking to consider the self-delusion that must have been necessary for people at the time to believe in such wildly inconsistent notions as "inalienable rights" and slavery. Perhaps they simply viewed one as the goal to strive towards, and the other as the current, unfortunate state of reality. Especially given that they had a civil war not six decades after Jefferson's presidency, and paid a high price in t…

You can’t let them get away that easily. Jefferson and Washington could have freed their own slaves at any time but chose not to.

Sigh. Washington did free his slaves. Virginia blocked Jefferson from doing so.

Re: A Database of Fugitive Slave Ads Reveals Thousands of Untold Stories (2018)

#120

Post by oh_sigh »

sfkdjf9j3j wrote: post #93
tasogare wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You forget to say these kids didn’t magically lend in jail. They were brought there by their parents that purposely broke immigration laws. They possibly even did it with the idea of appealing to emotion of US citizens to get away with it.

They aren't breaking immigration laws as they are asylum seekers.

Pretty much everyone is going to say they are seeking asylum if they are caught.
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