Aerial footage of uncontacted Amazon tribe • Hacker News Board

Re: Aerial footage of uncontacted Amazon tribe

#111

Post by kevinelliott » Fri, Feb 04, 2011, 11:33 PM UTC

LaGrange wrote: post #72

d3x wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I really hope you are kidding. If not this is so typical of the american way of thinking. Yes, we are so superior lets convert them all to our [insert culture, religion etc...]. What is so bad about leaving them alone? I would bet they are much happer than the majority of the FB and Twitter obsessed narcissist that I run into every day. While we are at it lets make sure they all become good christians too because any…

"I would bet they are much happer than the majority of the FB and Twitter obsessed narcissist that I run into every day." Hi, I am an obsessed FB and Twitter narcissist, and I'm proud of it. I'm also happy about having access to the Western medicine, which, while not the only one, and not perfects, seems to be the only one that consistently works. And you are not talking about giving them a "right". You are talking a…

Don't forget that technology is in itself a drug and nearly impossible for a "simple" mind to resist. To them technology appears as "tools of the Gods"... how could they reject it?

After all that, you have to think... do they really have the self-driven choice to accept it?

Re: Aerial footage of uncontacted Amazon tribe

#112

Post by krschultz » Fri, Feb 04, 2011, 11:35 PM UTC

xenophanes wrote: post #82

d3x wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I really hope you are kidding. If not this is so typical of the american way of thinking. Yes, we are so superior lets convert them all to our [insert culture, religion etc...]. What is so bad about leaving them alone? I would bet they are much happer than the majority of the FB and Twitter obsessed narcissist that I run into every day. While we are at it lets make sure they all become good christians too because any…

I am not kidding. You are posting a very typical left wing way of thinking where you have a hard time believing people can both exist and fundamentally disagree with you. You hope they don't really mean it, or at least they are Christians so you have something unintellectual to blame (I am not). You are advocating some kind of "tolerance" of primitive cultures (consisting largely of non-intervention which is rather d…

I don't see what's left wing about it.

The basic premise of conservatism is that government should be limited, and that its primary role should be to protect people's rights from other people, the government, and other governments.

Obviously, these people have a right to their property. It is being encroached upon. The issue is not, should we go through the jungle and make conversation? The issue is if Peru should allow the destruction of this group of people's property by farmers. There is nothing liberal about saying that the government should be protecting the property of these people.

We have already in essence made contact. They have seen an airplane or helicopter taking a picture of them. They are all clearly looking at the camera. They know there is a world out there that they aren't a part of because they certaintly can't fly and other people can. That could make them do things they would not have done if they had not seen the airplane, so we have shattered their world view already.

What I'm more interested in is if they want to keep their land or not. There are plenty of tribes in the world who know about the real world, and choose to stay in their own way of life. There was an entire American TV series about this, they brought people from tropical islands to the US and showed them everything, and most of them chose to go back. I think these people should have a choice as well, but that choice will not be there for them if their forest is destroyed.

Re: Aerial footage of uncontacted Amazon tribe

#113

Post by raganwald » Fri, Feb 04, 2011, 11:37 PM UTC

xenophanes wrote: post #104

raganwald wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How does your perspective differ from the perspective of the missionaries who attempted to bring "salvation" to indigenous peoples around the world? How does your perspective differ from the perspectives that led to the imposition of the Residential Schools? https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Canadian_Indi... Also, nothing I wrote says anything about providing them with access , it says something about de…

I readily acknowledge we may agree more than it first appears given the particular emphasis we each chose. But I do think there is substantive disagreement here within the realm of non-violent (and, dare I say it: civilized) ways to approach the matter. The very idea of having a way that "we" deal with "uncontacted tribes" is collectivist on both ends. Individuals should do whatever they want without violating anyone…

I suspect we still agree on the principles. The only thing I am advocating is thinking things through. For example, it is very difficult to interact with them without violating their right to life because it is easy to infect them with a disease. What do we do? Nothing, and let people figure it out for themselves? Put up signs? Or restrict the area to anthropologists who have training in the matter?

I don't personally know what to do about that. I said I'd like to treat them as I'd like to be treated. Personally, I'm glad I have access to the Internet.

Re: Aerial footage of uncontacted Amazon tribe

#114

Post by logjam » Fri, Feb 04, 2011, 11:39 PM UTC

DanielBMarkham wrote: post #64

d3x wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I really hope you are kidding. If not this is so typical of the american way of thinking. Yes, we are so superior lets convert them all to our [insert culture, religion etc...]. What is so bad about leaving them alone? I would bet they are much happer than the majority of the FB and Twitter obsessed narcissist that I run into every day. While we are at it lets make sure they all become good christians too because any…

What is so bad about leaving them alone? I would bet they are much happer than the majority of the FB and Twitter obsessed narcissist that I run into every day. What is so bad is you making the decision for them -- one way or the other. It's that kind of pompous paternalistic attitude that caused all kinds of pain and misery. If they are happy with a life expectancy of 30, of having mothers die in childbirth commonly…

I've rarely seen more assumptions and projections made in a few paragraphs.

On the one hand, you judge these cultures as "primitive" and "caveman". Then in the next breath you decry pomposity and paternalism.

Yeah, we've found over and over again that contact with "primitive" cultures destroys the cultures. Tell that to Native Americans in both South and North America. Their "primitive" culture could have taught our "modernity" plenty...that is, if we'd taken a few minutes to listen to these "primitives" before we practiced a policy of systematic genocide.

Don't arrogantly assume there is anything wonderful about your "modern" life with carcinogens and pollution all around, man made global destruction of the environment, and nuclear destruction of the whole fucking planet just a half hour away. Talk about arrogance...and ignorance.

Re: Aerial footage of uncontacted Amazon tribe

#115

Post by [deleted] » Fri, Feb 04, 2011, 11:40 PM UTC

raganwald wrote: post #94

xenophanes wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We should give them access to technology and to our way of life. Our way of life is better. Preserving their backwards culture so they can continue lives of misery and suffering is just as disgusting as the Prime Directive. Help is exactly what I would want from advanced alien visitors. I don't want them to respect my culture just because it is mine; I want something better for myself, not cultural relativism. There…

I never actually said we shouldn't contact them or offer assistance. Before I go to the gym, I'll argue what I think is with your point. For those who think they should be left in isolation, why is it bad to contact them and expose them to our civilization, but good to invent new things and businesses and cultural systems in our civilization? For example, entrepreneurs invented television and birth control. These inv…

[deleted]

Re: Aerial footage of uncontacted Amazon tribe

#116

Post by bugsy » Fri, Feb 04, 2011, 11:40 PM UTC

jbrennan wrote: post #5

I wonder what kind of disturbance just the helicopter (or whatever method was used to capture the footage) caused on the tribe. Obviously the tribe was aware of it, but if they've never been contacted, would they be able to even fathom what such a thing is? I'm genuinely curious because I'm also genuinely ignorant on how "uncontacted" tribes like that are and what their civilization is like. Could anyone enlighten me…

The uncontacted tribes are not unknown and they are not ignorant that there is a world outside with airplanes. They are uncontacted because they choose not to make contact with non-tribal outsiders. This is in part due to violent conflicts in the past.

There's a statement by a Yamomani leader on the site that uncontacted tribes should be left alone on their own lands and since governments like Peru were denying their existence, the photos will help.

http://www.survivalinternational.org/material/1157

Yanomami if you recall are a stone age people from this area who only made peaceful contact a few decades ago. They have had contact and familiarity with some of these other tribes.

The tribes in this video are protected somewhat by the Brazilian government which uses aerial visits to check on the condition of tribes and make sure that outsiders have not breeched the perimeter of the reserve.

Re: Aerial footage of uncontacted Amazon tribe

#117

Post by seanos » Fri, Feb 04, 2011, 11:40 PM UTC

ugh wrote: post #108

seanos wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it's because when we invent television we don't lose anything. Once we show these people the modern world, there is no going back. It makes it a difficult moral dilema.

When we invented cars we lost our own culture’s tradition of riding horses. It used to be the case that everyone knew how to ride a horse, now only a select few decide to preserve that tradition. Even they ride only for sport and fun, a cheap imitation of what it meant to ride a horse 200 years ago. Cars viciously destroyed the role horses play in our society, that part of our culture is forever lost. (I’m not sad.)

But people can still ride a horse. A contacted tribe can never become uncontacted again. BTW I have no idea whether the right answer is to contact them or not, I am just explaining why it is a moral dilemma.

Re: Aerial footage of uncontacted Amazon tribe

#118

Post by xenophanes » Fri, Feb 04, 2011, 11:40 PM UTC

raganwald wrote: post #113

xenophanes wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I readily acknowledge we may agree more than it first appears given the particular emphasis we each chose. But I do think there is substantive disagreement here within the realm of non-violent (and, dare I say it: civilized) ways to approach the matter. The very idea of having a way that "we" deal with "uncontacted tribes" is collectivist on both ends. Individuals should do whatever they want without violating anyone…

I suspect we still agree on the principles. The only thing I am advocating is thinking things through. For example, it is very difficult to interact with them without violating their right to life because it is easy to infect them with a disease. What do we do? Nothing, and let people figure it out for themselves? Put up signs? Or restrict the area to anthropologists who have training in the matter? I don't personall…

Fair enough.

Re: Aerial footage of uncontacted Amazon tribe

#119

Post by kevinelliott » Fri, Feb 04, 2011, 11:41 PM UTC

orangecat wrote: post #105

paulitex wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Our way of life is better" Ahh yes, the colonialist's mantra. Even more of a historical failure than the communist manifesto. Go look at how life 'improved' in sub saharan africa. Or the profoundly sad state of natives all over the world, in Canada, Australia, US, and beyond. Our way of life is not better. It is not for everyone. We have huge wealth and health disparity, large scale violence, drug addiction and home…

Our way of life is not better. Yes, it is. Would you trade places with them? Would you want your children to? We have huge wealth and health disparity Which we could certainly eliminate by destroying all our wealth and abandoning medicine. The only thing that should tell you is that "inequality" is a poor metric. And none of this implies that it would be acceptable to forcibly impose our civilization on anyone. It do…

It's not fair to offer that comparison after we've already been exposed to our own cultures. Of course now that we've had technology, our social traditions and structure, and advances in science and history, that it would be nearly impossible to WANT to trade places with them.

However, we are a stressed out, overworked, sick society who has lost traditions such as appreciation of family, and our idea of relaxation and "living life" is a 2 week vacation once a year. Sure, we've got great tools and Xboxes and the Internet and modern medicine... but at the end of the day, 100+ million Americans are literally sick (defined by the prescribed medications that over 1 in 3 have to treat symptoms of sickness).

If I had grown up in their tribe, and was given an opportunity to completely understand the pros and cons of the new society, I may just want to stay ignorant in my tribe.

It's quite possible that while they're likely less intelligent, less advanced and very primitive, but happy and connected with each other and have a quality of life that comparatively (to them) is better than our way of life.

At the end of the day, to me at least, quality of life is what's really important. To others, it's competition, satisfaction of proving that they are better than others, money, and egocentric activities that make them happy (and that's fine).

Re: Aerial footage of uncontacted Amazon tribe

#120

Post by raganwald » Fri, Feb 04, 2011, 11:41 PM UTC

DanielBMarkham wrote: post #93

raganwald wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Treat people as you would like to be treated if you were them. I wish I had 100 upmods to give. This is exactly what I was saying elsewhere, we should think about how we would want to be treated. Would we want medicine and education offered to us? Would we want the option for some of our elders to live out the rest of their lives in a traditional manner? Would we want bulldozers knocking down our trees? Would we want…

I don't know the answer either, but I sure as hell know it's not my decision to make for somebody else. Your point about possible alien intelligences is an excellent one. How would we want to be treated if the shoe were on the other foot? I don't know my answer -- I suspect I would be all for change even if it were uncomfortable. But I absolutely know that I would be the one to make my personal decision about the mat…

I don't know what they're going to do here. The isolated tribe in India live in a protected zone, but the government regularly offers them a chance to make contact, and the tribe drives them off with weapons.

That's a way forward that is neither dragging them into the 21st century nor running a zoo. I'm not advocating for that, of course, just pointing out that contact/isolation is a false dichotomy.