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China warns India of 'reverse sanctions' if Huawei is blocked

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Re: China warns India of 'reverse sanctions' if Huawei is blocked

#111
post #42

In an ideal world one should not be spied on by anyone else, but in this particular case I think India would be more ok (so to speak) of being spied on by the US than by China, the reason being that India has an ongoing and still open border dispute with China, while its relations with the US are a little more benign. Granted, I'm not from India and I've never visited the country, maybe someone more knowledgeable tha…

We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20629406.

Re: China warns India of 'reverse sanctions' if Huawei is blocked

#112
post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure that the idea that the US is more benign than china is shared outside the US or the occidental world.

The US gives more aid around the world than any other country on Earth. The US has been an advocate and global protector of human rights and civil freedoms around the world for over half a century. The US has toppled brutal dictators like Saddam Hussein and kept the global peace. The US has given more to the world through its scientific and industrial innovation in the last 50 years than any other nation over the sam…

>> Most of the complaints about the US focus on comparatively small mistakes

Taking down democracy in Iran. Supporting dictators in Latin America and Africa and assisting them in hunting down democracy activists. Financing terrorism in Angola for two decades. Fabricating an incident in order to attack North Vietnam, killing 3 millions people. Supporting "Asian Hitler" Pol Pot and the Khmer Rouge. Tacitly supporting Pakistan's genocidal attack against Bangladesh. Selling weapons to the terrorist regime of Iran, and then using the money to support terrorists in central America. Fabricating a threat in order to invade Iraq (hundreds of thousands of dead, millions displaced). Supporting terrorist groups in Syria. Waging undeclared wars in (at least) seven countries at the moment.

"Small mistakes."

Re: China warns India of 'reverse sanctions' if Huawei is blocked

#113

Buying 5G technology from a benign country like Finland or Sweden seems like a good strategy. Both these countries have no aspiration for world domination and have track records of honest business dealings. I don't think either Ericson or Nokia has ever been accused or guilty of spying or stealing technology.

They also have cooperated with GCHQ and the NSA.

Personally I think "the devil you know" mentality is better when considering that any Telecom tech could be compromised. Yeah everybody is probably spying, so you should get your gear from your strongest allies.

Would you rather have a friend or an enemy spying on you? That appears to be the only options now that technology has thoroughly penetrated every day life.

Another point not mentioned enough is that societies with free press are far more likely to find and report exploits/backdoors. In a country like the US you see this a lot. There's many cases of security researchers reporting possible government funded exploits against their own government. In a place like China reporting something like that would probably mean you disappear

Re: China warns India of 'reverse sanctions' if Huawei is blocked

#114
post #48

China has a good relationship with Pakistan. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/China%E2%80%93Pakistan_relatio... I wonder how that plays into it, given the recent events in Kashimir: https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2019/08/india-revokes-kashmir... If I had to guess these sanctions and warnings are never purely technological and are mostly political.

And bewilderingly enough, the US continues to give Pakistan military aid.

That is an odd one isn't it. It seems it is partly a bribe to make sure they safeguard their nukes and keep them from getting into the wrong hands, and also to ensure it doesn't harbor terrorists and militants who might interfere with America's ambitions in the region. Then India has traditionally, since Cold War times at least, been buying Soviet and Russian military technology. From that point of view, US probably wants to counter-balance it by arming Pakistan, to avoid Russia and India getting an upper hand in the region.

Also, interestingly, in the last two years their military aid has been reduced by almost half https://www.statista.com/chart/12384/us-aid-to-pakistan/. It seems the current administration is keen on reducing foreign aid across the board so maybe that's not too surprising. Though if I was China, I would notice that and make sure to "fill that void" so to speak.

Re: China warns India of 'reverse sanctions' if Huawei is blocked

#115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tell that to the Kurds and other persecuted minorities who were tortured and killed en masse by Saddam.

It was not the US that perpetrated the violence after it toppled Saddam. It was the radical elements within Iraq. They're the ones that bear responsibility.

..so what exactly are we supposed to be telling the Kurds? That the US isn't responsible for the indirect effects of occupations that were started on lies to begin with?

Re: China warns India of 'reverse sanctions' if Huawei is blocked

#116
post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You'd need to have been living on a different planet to think that the US is benign. Relatively benign to their own citizens but far and away the most globally antagonistic country over the last 50 years. The list of wars and interventions, arms dealing, extradition etc would be far beyond anything China has done. No government is beyond over stepping it's boundaries but unfortunately non US citizens do not have a co…

[flagged]

> Last time I checked, for 70 years the US has overwhelmingly acted as a defender of liberal democracies, not an antagonist.

There is so much wrong with this statement. Let's take a look at some of your great examples.

> Iran (theocracy)

Do you know anything about American and British led operations to overthrow the Iranian government in the 1950s?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1953_Iranian_coup_d%27%C3%A9ta...

They overthrew a democratically elected government in order to install one more friendly to Western oil interests. Does that sound like a government that is the "protector of liberal democracies"?

> Cuba (dictatorship)

So the popular revolution against the military dictator Fulgencio Batista ended up with a pretty authoritarian government. We can argue on the legitimacy of the communist government, but let's talk about the government before that.

If the US was a "protector of liberal democracies" and likes to be "in conflict" with dictators, why didn't they care much about the government before the communist one? Oh yeah, because American companies owned 70% of the island and Batista was put into power by the US themselves.

> Venezuela (dictatorship)

Oh, Venezuela. This is a great topic. The US has been wanting to topple the democratically elected government since it's inception.

Here's a quote summarizing the sentiment of the people before 1999, when Hugo Chavez was elected.

> A sensation of insecurity became generalized throughout the population, constituting "an emerging culture of violence. . . very distinct from the culture of tolerance and peace that dominated Venezuelan society in the past." (Briceño León et al., 1997: 213). Along with unemployment, personal safety topped the problems perceived as most serious by the population. Between 1986 and 1996 the number of homicides per 10,000 inhabitants jumped from 13.4 to 56, an increase of 418 percent, with most of the victims being young males

It was a very bad time to be Venezuelan. Nowadays it is also a bad time to be Venezuelan. Why though? Do you think American sanctions and big business sabotage has nothing to do with it? To think so would be naive.

There are countless examples in every region of the entire planet where the US has done things that are not in line with the tag "protector of liberal democracy". They regularly cooperated with dictators, even brutal ones like Pinochet or Saddam Hussein. They do not care one lick about liberal democracy. It is realpolitik, plain and simple.

Now, I must state for posterity... The US is not the only country that behaves in this manner. I think any country will behave this way, because it's simply game theory. If someone's interests are in line with yours, you're going to cooperate with them.

I just think the US has so much power that it's influence is felt at a much higher presence than any other nation. So while any other country in the US's position would be performing similar actions, it's the US that's performing this actions.

Re: China warns India of 'reverse sanctions' if Huawei is blocked

#117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Seperating the East India company from the British government seems specious at best. The company was responsible for more GDP than the actual island of Britain, and was given explicit military support in their actions.

They had an ridiculous degree of autonomy for much of their existence, their own large armies and their fleet included warships. At one point loaning a huge sum of money to the state in exchange for even more autonomy. It was only going into the 19th century that anything resembling control or oversight started to come into being. Which in no small part led to their disestablishment.

That autonomy was a choice made by the British government. The British government does not get to absolve itself of actions taken by its citizens for hundreds of years that had governmental support.

Edit: if I built a fleet of warships, flying the US flag, escorted by full US Navy warships began starting shooting wars with other countries, can the US government just go "not us, private citizens, we don't have anything to do with that"?

Re: China warns India of 'reverse sanctions' if Huawei is blocked

#118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They had an ridiculous degree of autonomy for much of their existence, their own large armies and their fleet included warships. At one point loaning a huge sum of money to the state in exchange for even more autonomy. It was only going into the 19th century that anything resembling control or oversight started to come into being. Which in no small part led to their disestablishment.

That autonomy was a choice made by the British government. The British government does not get to absolve itself of actions taken by its citizens for hundreds of years that had governmental support. Edit: if I built a fleet of warships, flying the US flag, escorted by full US Navy warships began starting shooting wars with other countries, can the US government just go "not us, private citizens, we don't have anythin…

For the first hundred years of their existence there was an autocratic monarchy, a civil war and a dictatorial republic. Then restoration of the monarchy and the Glorious Revolution at the end of the 17th century that actually established the principle of parliamentary government and sovereignty. Not so much absolving as didn't yet exist...

The company was far more a relic of the earlier age - when the sovereign gave favour, handed letters of marque and established privateers. The East India Company and the Dutch East India Company similarly were more corporate states than companies as we might recognise them.

Re: China warns India of 'reverse sanctions' if Huawei is blocked

#119
post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

India has $60 billion trade surplus with US it is not same relationship when with China, India has $60 billion deficit. India is not that important for US, it is useful, Yes. Strategically important? Absolutely NOT! Edit: To Provide Context, there is low scale tit-for-tat going between US and India regarding trade. https://www.cnn.com/2019/06/15/economy/india-tariffs-us-trum...

You are getting downvoted since Indians are not interested in hearing the truth.

You can't post nationalistic slurs to HN. We've banned this account for repeatedly violating the site guidelines.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Re: China warns India of 'reverse sanctions' if Huawei is blocked

#120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That autonomy was a choice made by the British government. The British government does not get to absolve itself of actions taken by its citizens for hundreds of years that had governmental support. Edit: if I built a fleet of warships, flying the US flag, escorted by full US Navy warships began starting shooting wars with other countries, can the US government just go "not us, private citizens, we don't have anythin…

For the first hundred years of their existence there was an autocratic monarchy, a civil war and a dictatorial republic. Then restoration of the monarchy and the Glorious Revolution at the end of the 17th century that actually established the principle of parliamentary government and sovereignty. Not so much absolving as didn't yet exist... The company was far more a relic of the earlier age - when the sovereign gave…

So even accepting your argument at face value (for the purposes of this argument), the British government has no blame for a company consisting of its citizens and based in it's capital starting wars for two centuries with military support from said government?
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