The reason why I hate it is because of how disrespectful it is. I would be fine with a 20-30 minutes test, but if it says "Don't spend more than one day on this" I would walk. Writing a resume is fine, because I can copy paste it. Interviewing is fine because it's me talking to another person. They invest time, I invest time. I would even be fine with "solve this thing, print it out, bring it to the interview so we c…
Why Developers Hate Coding Skills Tests and What Hiring Managers Can Do
111–120 of 120 posts
Re: Why Developers Hate Coding Skills Tests and What Hiring Managers Can Do
#112The reason why I hate it is because of how disrespectful it is. I would be fine with a 20-30 minutes test, but if it says "Don't spend more than one day on this" I would walk. Writing a resume is fine, because I can copy paste it. Interviewing is fine because it's me talking to another person. They invest time, I invest time. I would even be fine with "solve this thing, print it out, bring it to the interview so we c…
Re: Why Developers Hate Coding Skills Tests and What Hiring Managers Can Do
#113As a hiring manager I'm literally losing sleep over this problem. I've been on both sides of this now and it's such a delicate balance. As a developer, you want to be fairly evaluated to prove your worth. As a hiring manager, you want to make sure you don't hire a dud (or worse, someone that will drag down the rest of your team). I spend more than 1/2 of my day now trying to build out a team that I need to aggressive…
Hmm, that sounds more than a little onerous. How many expected hours/days does that translate to? > As a developer, you want to be fairly evaluated to prove your worth. Indeed, but what I don't expect is to give a day or three to a potential employer knowing full well that most applications are going to be rejected. When a vacancy often gets 100+ applications it's clear people are going to be rejected for the most te…
The PR review should take 20-30 min. The phone call before the on site is 45 min. The on site is 5 hrs spread across 5 interviews and includes time for lunch
Re: Why Developers Hate Coding Skills Tests and What Hiring Managers Can Do
#114Earlier quoted context omitted.
1) Why would I bother spending time "freshening up" on HackerRank? I don't do DSA, so things like binary trees are a waste of time for me; but they are a favorite of schools. Every second I'm doing that is a second that I'm not devoting to the driver work I'm doing (ONVIF stuff). I have a VERY full dance card. Writing generic driver code for a sloppy spec like ONVIF is...challenging. I was interviewed a while back fo…
Look I'm not trying to be rude, an attitude like yours doesn't really fit into a startup. They aren't looking for an absolute rockstar who believes their experience puts them in a level above all other engineers, or someone who believes they are too good to go through the process everyone else went through. They want someone who won't spread toxicity through the small team, and your numerous accolades does nothing to…
Re: Why Developers Hate Coding Skills Tests and What Hiring Managers Can Do
#115Earlier quoted context omitted.
Exactly :) This is a good response to OP ; you cannot be bothered because law blah blah blah but you can bother us with inane little tests and bullshit? If you don't see anything wrong with that...
The test we give people is a straight forward mock of the thing they'd do daily if they got the job, with a ton of scope for candidates to show why they're good. It's as close to a real world task as we can get. There are no silly algorithm tests or whiteboard coding tasks. We simply ask candidates to demonstrate they can do what we're hiring for. Also, every job ad we write explains what the hiring process is. Anyon…
Re: Why Developers Hate Coding Skills Tests and What Hiring Managers Can Do
#116Earlier quoted context omitted.
I have over 100,000 LoC in the public domain, in over 30 repos (the ones I'm highlighting). I have architected, deployed and shepherded large-scale hybrid systems that are currently in use daily by thousands of people around the world. I have a decade of checkins and mineable Git data. I have solved every single problem that I've ever encountered; whether technical or human (I was a manager for a long time). I have c…
While I completely agree (and sympathize) with this frustration, there are two things I want to point out. 1. If you can do all these things, then it really won't take that long to freshen up your your white board skills so that you can solve a variety of algorithmic problems easily in code on a whiteboard. If you really want to work for at a FAANG-style place, then just divert your energy for a bit into practicing w…
Actually it does (and that's part of the whole point of the massive burnout crisis caused by these tests). By and large -- they've become so distorted (either by intentionally asking candidates to solve ridiculously hard problems; or by having these goals set, or simply having the tasks so carelessly so as to achieve the same effect) that they've basically lost any grounding in reality.
The only way to soften the blow (that is, to significantly reduce the chance of immediate rejection) is to cram -- that is, to in effect make it your part-time job (for a little while) specifically "practicing for" (that is, memorizing the expected outcomes of) these tests.
Which of course defeats the entire purpose of the "test". As one would think these companies would be smart enough to know.
Yes I know many people are ready to say, "But when Iinterview I just do this simple FizzBuzz-oid thing I came up with that anyone who claims to have a CS degree should be ale to solve." What I mean is -- the last time I had to go through this ritual -- about 50 percent of the time these tests (or simply the environment in which they were conducted) were seriously off-base in one form or another.
And in more than a few cases I wish I could forget, ridiculously so.
Re: Why Developers Hate Coding Skills Tests and What Hiring Managers Can Do
#117Earlier quoted context omitted.
Hmm, that sounds more than a little onerous. How many expected hours/days does that translate to? > As a developer, you want to be fairly evaluated to prove your worth. Indeed, but what I don't expect is to give a day or three to a potential employer knowing full well that most applications are going to be rejected. When a vacancy often gets 100+ applications it's clear people are going to be rejected for the most te…
> How many expected hours/days does that translate to? The PR review should take 20-30 min. The phone call before the on site is 45 min. The on site is 5 hrs spread across 5 interviews and includes time for lunch
Re: Why Developers Hate Coding Skills Tests and What Hiring Managers Can Do
#118Earlier quoted context omitted.
None of this proves that you're a good fit, either generally at a company or specifically on a team. Empirically, tech companies where executives and managers were mostly software engineers at one point and are considered best places with best talent almost uniformly have standardized hiring processes with whiteboarding algorithms and what not. Companies run by non-technical MBAs that aren't known for software talent…
How about looking at a portfolio? Suppose that I have a portfolio with...let's just say...100KLoC of extremely current (like fifteen minutes ago) code, a GitHub ID that is solid green, and over 30 public repos in one org, and over 50 in another, and some of those repos and code examples happen to fit your application EXACTLY. Think that might tell you a bit more about me than a schoolboy test? Asking for a friend.. Y…
As I said, this is just not how things are done at modern tech companies and there are good reasons - hiring managers generally don't have the authority to arbitrarily bypass standard processes because hiring managers are inherently biased towards hiring someone good enough for the time being, even if it lowers the bar. So the goal isn't to hire somebody that the hiring manager feels is good enough, but to objectively compare thousands of candidates against one another in a systematic way that keeps the bar sufficiently high enough. You should understand at least what the problem is before you can criticize the solution.
Also, generally speaking, if you pay attention to research into hiring, the two things that really stand out are that 1) general abilities are more important than specific skills and 2) standardized processes outperform ad hoc evaluation. If you're asking to be evaluated on ad hoc credentials that cannot be objectively compared to others (most people's best work cannot be shared) - you're asking people to forego processes. And that is simply not known to work very well, mainly because it's not evidence-based. Your unique set of accomplishments that cannot be compared is not known to correlate with any measure of performance because there's no way to say, people who tend to have accomplishments like yours tend to perform at a certain level.
I also don't know what you mean by "top-shelf" corporation but I'm not aware of any top software company that doesn't basically do this - your claim to have been a hiring manager at a top-shelf corporation isn't consistent with your lack of understanding of the realities faced by top-shelf corporations where there are far more candidates than qualified due to paying well above market and the need to ensure that the bar is kept consistently high, regardless of the motivations and qualities of individual hiring managers and interviewers (unless your top-shelf company isn't actually a software company, in which case it's likely not top-shelf at software).
Re: Why Developers Hate Coding Skills Tests and What Hiring Managers Can Do
#119Earlier quoted context omitted.
How about looking at a portfolio? Suppose that I have a portfolio with...let's just say...100KLoC of extremely current (like fifteen minutes ago) code, a GitHub ID that is solid green, and over 30 public repos in one org, and over 50 in another, and some of those repos and code examples happen to fit your application EXACTLY. Think that might tell you a bit more about me than a schoolboy test? Asking for a friend.. Y…
The portfolio does not allow you to compare one candidate against another and the same guy I had to fire also had a great portfolio, probably like yours and was a good fit on paper. It doesn't tell you how well the person works nor how quickly the person is able to deliver. And quite frankly, no one has time to read through all your code either. And even if they did, how does reading your code help me compare you aga…
I apologize for wasting your time.
Re: Why Developers Hate Coding Skills Tests and What Hiring Managers Can Do
#120I like coding tests. They give me an opportunity to differentiate myself.
And some "musicians" love to play scales, and can play them really well.
> Does it make you a better professional musician if you can play all scales perfectly at any time? Absolutely not! In fact I’d argue that you’re wasting precious practice time.
I'm not a skilled musician by any means but I have often read and believe that there really isn't anything more valuable than practicing scales. It builds your brain's muscle memory so you can play anything you imagine/feel at any moment.