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Why Developers Hate Coding Skills Tests and What Hiring Managers Can Do

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Re: Why Developers Hate Coding Skills Tests and What Hiring Managers Can Do

#101
post #26

I float between three or four programming languages on a fairly regular basis (within a year), and I use or explore as many different frameworks depending on whether I'm fixing something from the past or researching something to use for the future. Similarly, I may have to go back and do some OOPish work, or I may be doing FP, or I may be doing plain integration glue scripting. There is no coding test which will iden…

Yes but at the same time those are also the easier questions to answer in the first place. The goal isn't always to finish solving the problem but to evaluate how you solve the problem.

Re: Why Developers Hate Coding Skills Tests and What Hiring Managers Can Do

#102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You know what else takes a lot of time and it’s a pain? Doing the dumb tests and assignments.

Exactly :) This is a good response to OP ; you cannot be bothered because law blah blah blah but you can bother us with inane little tests and bullshit? If you don't see anything wrong with that...

The test we give people is a straight forward mock of the thing they'd do daily if they got the job, with a ton of scope for candidates to show why they're good. It's as close to a real world task as we can get. There are no silly algorithm tests or whiteboard coding tasks. We simply ask candidates to demonstrate they can do what we're hiring for.

Also, every job ad we write explains what the hiring process is. Anyone who thinks the test is stupid presumably doesn't apply.

Re: Why Developers Hate Coding Skills Tests and What Hiring Managers Can Do

#103
post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And some "musicians" love to play scales, and can play them really well.

There are tests (silly logic puzzles or rehashing cs) and tests (actually useful practice evaluation). Let's assume the positive side of this idea.

I cannot assume that since most of my (personal, anecdotal) experience has been "rehashing cs".

I did have one fun test, but it wasn't live; it was a do-overnight thing, creating a URL shortener using Elixir and GenServer. I learned a lot, and I actually enjoyed solving the well-defined challenge. But that's certainly not something I've seen in a 1-2hr live coding test.

Re: Why Developers Hate Coding Skills Tests and What Hiring Managers Can Do

#104
post #26

I float between three or four programming languages on a fairly regular basis (within a year), and I use or explore as many different frameworks depending on whether I'm fixing something from the past or researching something to use for the future. Similarly, I may have to go back and do some OOPish work, or I may be doing FP, or I may be doing plain integration glue scripting. There is no coding test which will iden…

Yes but at the same time those are also the easier questions to answer in the first place. The goal isn't always to finish solving the problem but to evaluate how you solve the problem.

I agree, but I'm sure you can identify with having high standards for oneself. It's rather demoralizing to be very experienced and feel like a moron for a good part of an hour in front of someone who _must_ be skilled or else they wouldn't be giving you the coding test.

Re: Why Developers Hate Coding Skills Tests and What Hiring Managers Can Do

#105
I think if a developer has nothing in the public domain nor can demonstrate some code they have written to you in person then that is the only time a code test is valid. I agree with many here - I have over 2 decades of experience writing code, I see no reason why I should waste an hour of my time writing something asinine that I probably did as part of my university course (Palindrome detectors etc) when you could easily see my capabilities online, hell I have even linked to them all for you on my LinkedIn....

Re: Why Developers Hate Coding Skills Tests and What Hiring Managers Can Do

#106
post #40

I am happy for people who has energy, free time, and will to prove their abilities. I don't have the will, or energy for that. I have been working in the area like for the approx. last 2 decades. If anyone wants to validate if I can really code, can put 1 hour of their time and go over my github/gitlab profiles instead of asking 1 hour of my free time to redo what I was doing professionally. This will be counted agai…

I have over 100,000 LoC in the public domain, in over 30 repos (the ones I'm highlighting). I have architected, deployed and shepherded large-scale hybrid systems that are currently in use daily by thousands of people around the world. I have a decade of checkins and mineable Git data. I have solved every single problem that I've ever encountered; whether technical or human (I was a manager for a long time). I have c…

None of this proves that you're a good fit, either generally at a company or specifically on a team. Empirically, tech companies where executives and managers were mostly software engineers at one point and are considered best places with best talent almost uniformly have standardized hiring processes with whiteboarding algorithms and what not. Companies run by non-technical MBAs that aren't known for software talent tend to either not give such tests and/or have ad hoc processes where hiring managers hire whoever they want based on what they like. While hard data on hiring processes are difficult to get, I think this puts the burden of proof on those who are adamant that this is not an effective way.

More importantly, you need to look beyond yourself. I'm an old developer and I don't like to be grilled on algorithms either. But my understanding is that it works very well and that no one's ever come up with anything that's better in terms of effectiveness at scale. Giving random hiring managers discretion to hire who they want simply doesn't work if you're a desirable place to work and need some minimal level of competence across the board. What do you think would work any better? This focus on how it feels from your perspective is fine if you all you're trying to say is that it sucks for you personally but ultimately if you're trying to prove that this is a bad process for those who employ it, you need to make a case that there are better, more efficient processes. Every process will lose some qualified people - so that you may have been qualified, but were rejected isn't meaningful evidence against the process.

Btw, appeal to special credentials as a way to criticize standard procedures is an implicit argument that hiring managers should be given discretion to bypass standard procedures to hire special candidates. I've never really seen this go well, at a level below, say, industry pioneers. I do distinctly remember the one time I did that as a manager to hire someone with a rather long series of accomplishments who refused to take coding tests - I had to fire him rather quickly. The interesting part, other than the complete absence of any sort of actual productivity, is that he couldn't work with anyone, was right about everything and his long list of accomplishments was constantly used as a reason why he didn't have to do anything he didn't want to and any rule he didn't want to follow was stupid.

So I don't think standard algorithm tests are that great as a filter, but at the very least, the willingness to go through it communicates some level of willingness to do things you don't like or aren't best at. A huge part of what makes engineers successful isn't the ability to do things they are good at, but the willingness to do things they are not good at.

Re: Why Developers Hate Coding Skills Tests and What Hiring Managers Can Do

#107
post #32
post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But there is tax limit on flat reimbursements that is considerably lower than the actual cost in almost all cases (think €20 for a night in a hotel). Following your advice is actually a criminal offence (tax evasion).

If your accountant cannot tell you how to do this, you need to fire him/her and get a competent one. Hiding behind 'tax evasion' so that you can get away with paying people in 'nice lunches' (lol) is ridiculous.

Hiding behind 'tax evasion' so that you can get away with paying people in 'nice lunches' (lol) is ridiculous.

No one is hiding behind anything. The fact is that to pay someone properly for a half day test is not straightforward here in the UK (assuming you want to do it legally; obviously you could just give them cash). I've actually spent time looking in to it.

Re: Why Developers Hate Coding Skills Tests and What Hiring Managers Can Do

#108
post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem with this approach is that interview nerves don't just stop you from writing complicated algorithms, they often cause people to forget or stutter over trivial/simplistic stuff like syntax or popular APIs. For example, recently I did a simple algorithmic coding test in JavaScript. The overall logic I wrote was completely correct, but there were two issues: (1) I accidentally missed a function call (which I…

Do more interviews. It’s the only way to get used to it.

I hope this works. I am doing leetcode.com interview questions in my evening and definitely getting better at these.

But, as I said, the problem is that when I feel under the magnifying glass, basic cognitive skills like being able to read what's on the screen, or remember a syntax I've used for a decade can escape me.

If I was making mistakes on hard problems, I'd be more accepting. What I get in interviews is similar to forgetting super common words that you use every day ("thingamabob" doesn't gain the interviewer's trust).

Re: Why Developers Hate Coding Skills Tests and What Hiring Managers Can Do

#109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have over 100,000 LoC in the public domain, in over 30 repos (the ones I'm highlighting). I have architected, deployed and shepherded large-scale hybrid systems that are currently in use daily by thousands of people around the world. I have a decade of checkins and mineable Git data. I have solved every single problem that I've ever encountered; whether technical or human (I was a manager for a long time). I have c…

None of this proves that you're a good fit, either generally at a company or specifically on a team. Empirically, tech companies where executives and managers were mostly software engineers at one point and are considered best places with best talent almost uniformly have standardized hiring processes with whiteboarding algorithms and what not. Companies run by non-technical MBAs that aren't known for software talent…

How about looking at a portfolio?

Suppose that I have a portfolio with...let's just say...100KLoC of extremely current (like fifteen minutes ago) code, a GitHub ID that is solid green, and over 30 public repos in one org, and over 50 in another, and some of those repos and code examples happen to fit your application EXACTLY.

Think that might tell you a bit more about me than a schoolboy test?

Asking for a friend..

Yeah...it does mean that you'll need to spend some time actually reading up on what I can do, but there would be no question at all about my abilities or relevance to your workflow (BTW: That cuts both ways. You may well decide, from looking at my stuff, that I'm not a fit).

I was a hiring manager for over twenty years, at a top-shelf corporation, and managed a really heavy-duty team. I loved long résumés. I would have KILLED for the kind of information you can get in a well-stocked SO Story.

Re: Why Developers Hate Coding Skills Tests and What Hiring Managers Can Do

#110
The reason why I hate it is because of how disrespectful it is. I would be fine with a 20-30 minutes test, but if it says "Don't spend more than one day on this" I would walk.

Writing a resume is fine, because I can copy paste it. Interviewing is fine because it's me talking to another person. They invest time, I invest time. I would even be fine with "solve this thing, print it out, bring it to the interview so we can talk about it". That would be a good alternative to a whiteboard interview.

But doing a coding test for multiple hours without any compensation, and with the very real possibility of getting ghosted for whatever reason... That is just unacceptable.

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