Judge Gives E-Cigarette Makers 10 Months to Seek FDA Review • Hacker News Board

Re: Judge Gives E-Cigarette Makers 10 Months to Seek FDA Review

#111

Post by ndarwincorn » Sat, Jul 13, 2019, 1:19 PM UTC

LoSboccacc wrote: post #79

Symmetry wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nobody dies from Marijuana overdoses but having smoke in your lungs is having smoke in your lungs whether it comes form a cigarette or a joint or a campfire and it's pretty much equally bad each way. Users tend to spend less time smoking joints than cigarettes but I'd be very surprised if the incidence of lung cancer from marijuana was zero.

it's not the tobacco per se, even if it's a factor, the primary cancirogens are the other shit they mix in to get it burning easily, reliably and timely

This thread's so full of FUD spread by the aptly-named Truth campaign, and this one (and its parent) takes the cake. Eventually the fight-fire-with-fire approach they took to combat big tobacco is going to bite us.

While you're probably right about primary carcinogens, the tobacco plant pulls radioactive isotopes like Po-210 and Pb-210 out of the soil and air, and those concentrations have been growing as Polonium levels rise in soil from years of fertilizer use[1]. So to say 'it's not the tobacco' is a very dangerous comment.

Moreover, cardiovascular disease is the primary cause of death for smokers, not lung cancer, and while extracting nicotine from tobacco and vaporizing it in a PG/VG solution might mitigate risk of the latter there's no reason to believe it'll do anything for CVD. If anything, without the MAOI in tobacco that increases the nicotine's effect, on average folks vaping probably have higher levels in their bloodstream than folks that smoke.

[1]https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2270238/

Re: Judge Gives E-Cigarette Makers 10 Months to Seek FDA Review

#112

Post by fromthestart » Sat, Jul 13, 2019, 1:32 PM UTC

DanBC wrote: post #77

fromthestart wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I think the dangerous thing is that people who have never smoked are using vapes more and more I have yet to see any indication that vaping is dangerous, beyond changes in the brain from addiction. There are typically a handful of non-toxic* ingredients, and nicotine is not known to be harmful. *For consumption, not inhalation. Still, compared to cigarettes, this seems a bit like hysteria.

If you're comparing vaping to smoking then obviously vaping is many times safer. So, if smokers convert to vaping we don't mind, we're pleased. But if you're comparing vaping to not vaping, in young people, well vaping is going to be a bit more harmful (because everything has risks) than not vaping. We don't know what the risks are for young non-smokers who take up vaping. We do know that there is some risk they'll b…

In other words, you also haven't come across any actual evidence of harm from vaping?

Re: Judge Gives E-Cigarette Makers 10 Months to Seek FDA Review

#113

Post by dageshi » Sat, Jul 13, 2019, 1:49 PM UTC

acollins1331 wrote: post #108

dageshi wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most people actually. Most people who light a cigar will finish the entire thing.

In my experience most people will smoke a 1/3 or 1/2 of it and put it back. Then you clip the burnt part off and continue later. Maybe I only smoke around lightweights.

That's very much the exception than the rule, I've smoked cigars for 5 years at this point and nobody I know who also smokes does that. Usually I pencil in between 45 minutes-2 hours to smoke a cigar depending on size.

Re: Judge Gives E-Cigarette Makers 10 Months to Seek FDA Review

#114

Post by LoSboccacc » Sat, Jul 13, 2019, 2:00 PM UTC

ndarwincorn wrote: post #111

LoSboccacc wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

it's not the tobacco per se, even if it's a factor, the primary cancirogens are the other shit they mix in to get it burning easily, reliably and timely

This thread's so full of FUD spread by the aptly-named Truth campaign, and this one (and its parent) takes the cake. Eventually the fight-fire-with-fire approach they took to combat big tobacco is going to bite us. While you're probably right about primary carcinogens, the tobacco plant pulls radioactive isotopes like Po-210 and Pb-210 out of the soil and air, and those concentrations have been growing as Polonium le…

> Moreover, cardiovascular disease is the primary cause of death for smokers

that alone tells nothing, cardiovascular disease is the primary death cause for general populace, that why you need to work out incidences, and guess which one has greater variation?

cardiovascular disease: 4x more likely

Cancer: 23x the risk compared to general populace

respiratory disease: 17x the risk

https://www.cdc.gov/tobacco/data_statistics/fact_sheets/heal...

funny how you had to cherry pick stats to present your point while accusing people of being shills.

smoking is bad, we get it. not everyone that can see a larger picture are part of God knows what conspiracy.

and I specifically did not say "tobacco without the other stuff is fine" so go grind your axe somewhere else

Re: Judge Gives E-Cigarette Makers 10 Months to Seek FDA Review

#115

Post by hackinthebochs » Sat, Jul 13, 2019, 2:15 PM UTC

DanBC wrote: post #77

fromthestart wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I think the dangerous thing is that people who have never smoked are using vapes more and more I have yet to see any indication that vaping is dangerous, beyond changes in the brain from addiction. There are typically a handful of non-toxic* ingredients, and nicotine is not known to be harmful. *For consumption, not inhalation. Still, compared to cigarettes, this seems a bit like hysteria.

If you're comparing vaping to smoking then obviously vaping is many times safer. So, if smokers convert to vaping we don't mind, we're pleased. But if you're comparing vaping to not vaping, in young people, well vaping is going to be a bit more harmful (because everything has risks) than not vaping. We don't know what the risks are for young non-smokers who take up vaping. We do know that there is some risk they'll b…

I really do wish people would stop citing this pre-frontal cortex development stuff as evidence against young adult's ability to make rational decisions. The actual studies do not support the claims people make using them. This is probably the worst example of the pop-sci industry run amok I've ever seen.

Re: Judge Gives E-Cigarette Makers 10 Months to Seek FDA Review

#116

Post by buildzr » Sat, Jul 13, 2019, 2:36 PM UTC

KUcxrAVrtI wrote: post #109

stan_rogers wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As in "no longer inhaling combustion products", certainly. I'll admit it's still a damned silly thing to do... unless it's compared to sticking dead plant matter into your face-hole and setting fire to it. I started smoking at age eleven (it was perfectly legal, and I'd been buying cigarettes legally for more than half of my life by that point - it was as much a normal part of an errand as picking up a quart of milk…

I completely respect your rights to smoke whatever you feel like, and your wish for a better healthier way of doing it, or hell even suing the people who targeted you at 11, but my issue is that it hasn't been proved to my satisfaction that vaping is healthier than cigarettes. The history of smoking is one of killing people more efficiently, ecigs feel like a continuation of that great tradition.

Are you seriously suggesting that the removal of basically every compound in tobacco found to be cancer causing and the addition of ones with a much lower likelihood of harm that have already been in use for well over a decade is going to be more dangerous?

With the exception of certain nasty flavoring agents and such, I think this is quite unlikely. There's certainly no evidence to support it.

Re: Judge Gives E-Cigarette Makers 10 Months to Seek FDA Review

#117

Post by SomeOldThrow » Sat, Jul 13, 2019, 3:17 PM UTC

on_and_off wrote: post #86

d1zzy wrote: post #3

I hope this doesn't result in e-cigs getting banned in the US because that would be terrible. I live in the same house with someone who has been smoking since they were a teenager (quite common where we're from) and e-cigs has allowed them to stop smoking cigarettes which may or may not benefit them that much but it most certainly benefits me (no smell of smoke in the house, no second hand smoking, etc). They have tr…

My main issue with e-cigs is that they are heavily marketed to kids, for example with young sponsored influencers doing smoke tricks and other shit. Thanks to e-cigs, teen cigarette (not e-cig) smoking has started increasing after decreasing for years. Teens that would have never started smoking are introduced to it with e-cigs. I don't know how these 2 phenomenons balance out. Does the number of cigarette smokers mo…

> number of younger people starting to smoke cigarettes because of it ?

Where is this fear coming from? The reason you pick up cigarettes is being around other people who smoke. I have seen zero evidence that cigarettes are on the rise among kids or that vaping somehow acts as a gateway drug. Using this to justify restriction of access to a cessation aid has always struck me as myopic, ineffective, and killing people. Granted it hasn’t happened quite yet, even in SF, so maybe there’s still hope. I’m certainly not looking forward to buying juul pods at extreme prices on the street.

Why not ban the goddamn cigarettes? People will complain and then roll their own anyway if they really need it in their life, and I certainly don’t see otherwise healthy teenagers rolling cigarettes again. It’s disgusting seeing arrays of cancerous easily smokable sticks in gas stations and corner stores.

Re: Judge Gives E-Cigarette Makers 10 Months to Seek FDA Review

#118

Post by on_and_off » Sat, Jul 13, 2019, 3:54 PM UTC

SomeOldThrow wrote: post #117

on_and_off wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My main issue with e-cigs is that they are heavily marketed to kids, for example with young sponsored influencers doing smoke tricks and other shit. Thanks to e-cigs, teen cigarette (not e-cig) smoking has started increasing after decreasing for years. Teens that would have never started smoking are introduced to it with e-cigs. I don't know how these 2 phenomenons balance out. Does the number of cigarette smokers mo…

> number of younger people starting to smoke cigarettes because of it ? Where is this fear coming from? The reason you pick up cigarettes is being around other people who smoke. I have seen zero evidence that cigarettes are on the rise among kids or that vaping somehow acts as a gateway drug. Using this to justify restriction of access to a cessation aid has always struck me as myopic, ineffective, and killing people…

Not a fear, a fact https://tobaccocontrol.bmj.com/content/26/e2/e106

Re: Judge Gives E-Cigarette Makers 10 Months to Seek FDA Review

#119

Post by 4ntonius8lock » Sat, Jul 13, 2019, 4:36 PM UTC

maccard wrote: post #80

VoiceOfWisdom wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because there definitely isn't any other way to consume marijuana other than smoking it.

There are alternative ways to consume tobacco too

But Tobacco and it's components, regardless of how they are consumed, are carcinogens.

My post with statistics, while downvoted, is correct.

Re: Judge Gives E-Cigarette Makers 10 Months to Seek FDA Review

#120

Post by 4ntonius8lock » Sat, Jul 13, 2019, 4:38 PM UTC

inlined wrote: post #54

pessimizer wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> having smoke in your lungs is having smoke in your lungs whether it comes form a cigarette or a joint This is not a thing that's true, it's a thing you assume. Having different smokes or vapors in your lungs can have different effects, just as drinking different liquids can have different effects. Tobacco smoke causes cancers. The more elements in another smoke that are shared with tobacco (or other plants that cau…

> Vaping doesn’t even involve burning vegetable matter Actually the substrates are PG or (more popularly) VG. That’s propylene glycol or vegetable glycerin. The latter is obviously plant based and studies have even measured the concentration vapers breathe as meeting OSHA standards. The real dangers of vaping are: the vasoconstriction of nicotine, the flavoring (which famously caused issues when a substance that was…

You are absolutely correct.

Low quality coils can be very dangerous.

That is why open and free access to products consenting adults want to use is important.

Most quality vaping is done with ceramic coils.

There are facts and nuance and reason. Or reactionary emotive perspectives that only hurt everyone involved. The choice is yours.