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Italy bans unvaccinated children from school

bbc.com

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Re: Italy bans unvaccinated children from school

#111

Post by orbifold »

leftyted wrote: post #108
tw04 wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>For example, they must be required by law to publish all studies on drug safety-- both positive, and negative results. That's currently not required, they're allowed to cherry-pick results! Why? The alternatives in pretty much all cases are death. Which side effect is better than your child being dead? Or mine for that matter because the collective you (not you personally) decided that risking polio was better than…

> Why? The alternatives in pretty much all cases are death. This seems like a huge exaggeration to me. There's a chickenpox vaccine nowadays which wasn't widely available when I was a kid. As a result, my siblings and I all contracted chickenpox at one point or another. Chickenpox is only very rarely a serious illness for children. Even with regard to more serious illnesses that have been made rare by vaccination (me…

Some diseases are not a big deal for most children but can outright kill others. They are sometimes really dangerous to any adult and typically all kinds of immune compromised people. Herd immunity is in some cases the only way they can be protected.

Re: Italy bans unvaccinated children from school

#112

Post by irondruid »

tw04 wrote: post #100
majewsky wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Which side effect is better than your child being dead? This is a very simplistic view given the probabilities involved. For a drastic example, consider a hypothetical treatment that can perfectly prevent a disease that would otherwise kill 1% of those who are treated, but it will blind 100% of them. It's hard to argue that this is a better outcome.

But that's not what we're talking about. We're talking about available vaccines and none of them cause blindness. And the rates of death are far higher than 1%. The probabilities involved are ridiculously in favor of vaccination. Literally the exact opposite of what you claim. Making up completely ridiculous examples to just justify anti-vaxxer idiocy should stay on Facebook.

Quick Google Search: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22989339

Re: Italy bans unvaccinated children from school

#113

Post by leftyted »

orbifold wrote: post #111
leftyted wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Why? The alternatives in pretty much all cases are death. This seems like a huge exaggeration to me. There's a chickenpox vaccine nowadays which wasn't widely available when I was a kid. As a result, my siblings and I all contracted chickenpox at one point or another. Chickenpox is only very rarely a serious illness for children. Even with regard to more serious illnesses that have been made rare by vaccination (me…

Some diseases are not a big deal for most children but can outright kill others. They are sometimes really dangerous to any adult and typically all kinds of immune compromised people. Herd immunity is in some cases the only way they can be protected.

> Some diseases are not a big deal for most children but can outright kill others.

This is exactly what I wrote, isn't it? The person I was responding to wrote:

> The alternatives in pretty much all cases are death. Which side effect is better than your child being dead?

I'm not arguing against vaccinations. I'm arguing against exaggeration.

Re: Italy bans unvaccinated children from school

#114

Post by deytempo »

tw04 wrote: post #77
purpleidea wrote: post #40

I'm a physiologist, and definitely NOT an anti-vaxxer. Two points: 1) What is the specific list of immunizations that are being mandated? 2) If immunizations are to be mandated, great, however the companies that produce them must also be mandated to be transparent in their research and development. For example, they must be required by law to publish all studies on drug safety-- both positive, and negative results. T…

>For example, they must be required by law to publish all studies on drug safety-- both positive, and negative results. That's currently not required, they're allowed to cherry-pick results! Why? The alternatives in pretty much all cases are death. Which side effect is better than your child being dead? Or mine for that matter because the collective you (not you personally) decided that risking polio was better than…

That’s an interesting idea. Make it so anyone who knowingly goes into a public place with a contagious illness is held legally responsible for it.

Re: Italy bans unvaccinated children from school

#115

Post by orbifold »

leftyted wrote: post #113
orbifold wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Some diseases are not a big deal for most children but can outright kill others. They are sometimes really dangerous to any adult and typically all kinds of immune compromised people. Herd immunity is in some cases the only way they can be protected.

> Some diseases are not a big deal for most children but can outright kill others. This is exactly what I wrote, isn't it? The person I was responding to wrote: > The alternatives in pretty much all cases are death. Which side effect is better than your child being dead? I'm not arguing against vaccinations. I'm arguing against exaggeration.

My point is that even if a disease is not dangerous to everyone it is worth to vaccinate everyone so that the rest benefits from herd immunity. In the cases where a disease is not dangerous to most children but dangerous to most adults things are even more complicated because once you have vaccinated sufficiently many people the disease becomes rare so it is more likely that someone unvaccinated contracts it as an adult.

Re: Italy bans unvaccinated children from school

#117

Post by Udik »

Udik wrote: post #15
jarmitage wrote: post #13

I would be interested to know if any Italians (or otherwise knowledgable people) are here who can comment on this anecdote: I once stayed with some Italians near Pisa, who were home schooling their children. They said that corrupt and ignorant politicians have added unnecessary vaccines to the list of requirements, due to lobbying/collusion with pharma companies and as a way to influence elections. As a result, some…

Not even sure you can home school children in Italy. I don't think so, schooling is mandatory up to a certain age. Anyway, I've never heard of anyone doing it.

Ok, I've checked. Apparently it's possible through some very loose interpretation of the law and some additional, and relatively recent, act of the government, which among other things mandates that the parents providing homeschooling need to prove their "financial and technical ability" to do so. Which sounds pretty unlikely since the public school teachers are pretty specialized. In practice in Italy it's such a marginal phenomenon that the law is simply providing a loophole for a tiny minority of very combative people who prefer to give to their children what is ultimately a worse education (if you just wanted to add to the education provided for free by public schools nobody prevented you to do so anyway).

In any case these kids need to go through a yearly exam to check on their progress and move to the next "class".

Edit: I add what seems to me a very reasonable sentence of the European Court of Human Rights, that upheld Germany's ban on homeschooling:

"children are unable to foresee the consequences of their parents' decision for home education because of their young age.... Schools represent society, and it is in the children's interest to become part of that society. The parents' right to educate does not go as far as to deprive their children of that experience."

Re: Italy bans unvaccinated children from school

#118

Post by secstate »

tantalor wrote: post #65
celeritascelery wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And how would you enforce that? Have everyone walk around with their immunization records and stop people randomly?

You could start with places with admission like sports, music, and theme parks.

I understand the serious issue of ensuring immunization. But you do realize how your comment might come off on the fascist side of liberty, right?

Re: Italy bans unvaccinated children from school

#119

Post by secstate »

alexozer wrote: post #104
hirundo wrote: post #99

It seems that some of the same arguments for mandatory vaccination of people also apply to mandatory upgrades for Windows. E.g. if an exploit is rarely open it would be more rarely attacked, thus giving the herd of Windows computers a kind of immunity, somewhat protecting computers that for whatever reason, can't be upgraded. Is it therefore reasonable to legally mandate updates or anti virus software for popular ope…

Preventing unnecessary deaths of children is not exactly in the same class of severity as preventing a computer from running malicious code in my opinion.

I dunno. Stuxnet and the general use of networked computers to manage things like nuclear reactors or power distribution networks would beg to differ.

Re: Italy bans unvaccinated children from school

#120

Post by secstate »

dagenix wrote: post #91
StevePerkins wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not saying it isn't a legitimate, serious issue. But the echo/amplification effect in some corners (i.e. primarily Reddit and HN) is really fascinating. Kind of a " I feel strongly about a thing, because so many people I interact with feel strongly about the thing " sort of thing. Of all the worthy issues out there today, I'm not sure why Reddit and HN has fixated on this particular one to the extent that they ha…

Maybe because there is nothing stupider than having people die from from preventable diseases due to bunk science?

Again, pitchforks down -- devil's advocate, but why is the topic not open for any discussion at all? Isn't that what defines a religion?
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