Google Employees Uncover Ongoing Work on Censored China Search • Hacker News Board

Re: Google Employees Uncover Ongoing Work on Censored China Search

#111

Post by matz1 » Tue, Mar 05, 2019, 3:33 AM UTC

Rebelgecko wrote: post #77

mc32 wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Google censors it’s results everywhere. The main difference is in one instance it’s censoring itself + it’s censoring according to localized laws + some activist input (both right and left). In China it’s basically also following laws to censor material plus doing some real-time censoring and removals. So it could be argued it’s the kind of censorship that people disagree with rather than in principle being against i…

The only censorship I've noticed on Google is when there's a copyright takedown on a page of search results. And for those, Google gives you a link to the takedown request, which naturally gives you a nice list of all the URLs that were censored. Does Google do other censorship that isn't noted in the search results? (particularly in the US?)

Yes they censor porn

Re: Google Employees Uncover Ongoing Work on Censored China Search

#112

Post by mc32 » Tue, Mar 05, 2019, 3:39 AM UTC

Rebelgecko wrote: post #77

mc32 wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Google censors it’s results everywhere. The main difference is in one instance it’s censoring itself + it’s censoring according to localized laws + some activist input (both right and left). In China it’s basically also following laws to censor material plus doing some real-time censoring and removals. So it could be argued it’s the kind of censorship that people disagree with rather than in principle being against i…

The only censorship I've noticed on Google is when there's a copyright takedown on a page of search results. And for those, Google gives you a link to the takedown request, which naturally gives you a nice list of all the URLs that were censored. Does Google do other censorship that isn't noted in the search results? (particularly in the US?)

This is s short list of things Google censors[1]. Some are to comply with jurisdictional laws, others because they think it’s appropriate. There are also cases where while the content or index remains, it's demoted.

[1]https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Censorship_by_Google

Re: Google Employees Uncover Ongoing Work on Censored China Search

#113

Post by TACIXAT » Tue, Mar 05, 2019, 3:47 AM UTC

prepend wrote: post #70

stri8ed wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Besides the implicit endorsement, does it really change anything on the ground? Existing search engines are already censored in China, and those that wish to bypass via VPN, can still do so after Google releases their censored version.

This is such a weird argument when applied to other areas. “Does it really change anything on the ground? Someone else will make the ovens and gas chambers?” “Does it really change anything on the ground? Someone else will assassinate Archduke Ferdinand?” Etc. being morally opposed to something and trying to abstain from supporting it is not the same as campaigning against something’s existence. I wouldn’t work for a…

I think your comparison to building gas chambers is hyperbolic and ridiculous.

Re: Google Employees Uncover Ongoing Work on Censored China Search

#114

Post by thisisweirdok » Tue, Mar 05, 2019, 3:50 AM UTC

math_and_stuff wrote: post #53

o10449366 wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I truly admire you for taking a stance and fighting for what you believe in. Figuring out what you can and can't stand for morally is a difficult task. I hope others can feel inspired by you to examine whether they can, in good conscience, continue to support Google. I am not advocating defeatism. I am simply trying to be realistic. It is a fact that within the tech community Google has always been given more lenienc…

I completely agree that a paradigm shift is required. Thankfully, it seems we are in the middle of one. There is sustained momentum, from tech workers, the press, congress, human rights orgs, etc. to work together to hold them accountable. And we are already making huge impacts. And, if press over the last six months (especially the NYT Rubin expose) is any indicator, Google's management is no longer viewed as benevo…

It's not big enough or fast to stop Google in China.

Re: Google Employees Uncover Ongoing Work on Censored China Search

#115

Post by geofft » Tue, Mar 05, 2019, 3:51 AM UTC

yvsong wrote: post #66

geofft wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A counterpoint: Google believed they could attract better engineers (which can be explained either as genuinely more skilled people, who have more ability to choose where they work, or simply more passionate people) with the "Don't be evil" policy. Oracle existed all along. Google wanted to not be Oracle. Now, Google has decided they want contracts like they're Oracle and they want staff like they're not Oracle. They…

Google's motto "Don't be evil" is not rigorous. Huawei claims something similar recently. The problem is who defines what's good or evil? Every group of people think they are noble, and the enemies are evil.

Sure, the motto by itself is just words. But like all mottos or mission statements ("free software" is a familiar example) the interesting thing is who else uses the phrase and what they mean by it.

Prospective Google employees saw what Google meant by "Don't be evil" by seeing how Google behaved (and specifically how other Google employees behaved) and decided it was worth following. They didn't just see the three words and think that sounds great.

And I disagree that every group of people thinks they're noble - the comment I replied to specifically says that companies are better when they do not see themselves as noble and only see themselves as profit-seeking.

Re: Google Employees Uncover Ongoing Work on Censored China Search

#116

Post by nostrademons » Tue, Mar 05, 2019, 3:52 AM UTC

int_19h wrote: post #87

nostrademons wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is pretty challenging for a multinational corporation operating in a globalized world. The issue here is that Google is trying to produce a product that conforms to Chinese laws for doing business in China. These laws are deeply offensive and immoral to many people in Google's largely-American workforce. Trying to create a moral compass that multinational corporations can live by requires creating laws that appl…

Doesn't this, in and of itself, tells you just how "multinational" Google really is? There's no real issue with creating laws that apply to everybody here. Google is developing this thing in US. Therefore, American laws - and American cultural sensibilities - apply. If they don't want that, then they can do that development in China, by the workforce (and I mean executives in charge of the project as well as coders)…

I suspect that most of the staff who's actually developing the product are in China. The way things worked while I was at Google (which spanned the period when they pulled out, though I'd left by the time they decided to get back in) was that the bulk of development for google.cn would be done by Google China staff, and they would get some consulting support from engineers on critical serving infrastructure (eg. the webserver, the search serving stack) for parts where it needs to interface with the rest of the codebase.

The thing that's come back to bite Google now is that they have a culture of being very open internally. So for example, all the design docs, technical mailing lists, org chart, and source code repository for any work on Dragonfly is open to all Googlers. The article said that it's Googlers who do not work on Dragonfly that have been monitoring the source repository and leaked this to The Intercept; they may be American workers with American cultural sensibilities, but that doesn't mean that they're developing Dragonfly.

If this were Apple, they'd farm out all the human rights abuses to Foxconn [1], and the rest of their employees wouldn't know about it until it shows up in the press. I suspect the result of this is that anything Dragonfly-related is going to be designated HIP (High-value Intellectual Property, the category of source code where access is restricted to specific engineers) and all design discussions and mailing lists related to it will be locked down. That, IMHO, would suck for Google's culture, but I don't work there anymore so at least it doesn't affect me.

[1] https://nypost.com/2017/11/21/apple-has-been-using-teen-labo...

Re: Google Employees Uncover Ongoing Work on Censored China Search

#117

Post by thisisweirdok » Tue, Mar 05, 2019, 3:55 AM UTC

PavlovsCat wrote: post #71

MRD85 wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And tons that will be willing to replace them.

Anyone who says "but others will do it instead" to excuse something they're doing is those other people. And someone doing something evil that I chose to not do doesn't actually replace me -- I'm still me, and I'm still glad to have made that choice.

I don't think anyone's using that excuse to justify working for Google, I think they're just saying that a small number of people quitting Google isn't nearly enough to stop them.

Google employs at least 20k engineers. I'd be shocked if 100 quit over this news.

Google could be murdering kittens to cool servers with their blood and you could probably find enough competent engineers to keep 10 Google's fully staffed. The vast majority of people do not give two shits.

Re: Google Employees Uncover Ongoing Work on Censored China Search

#118

Post by trumped » Tue, Mar 05, 2019, 3:58 AM UTC

o10449366 wrote: post #21

Google execs know that as long as they have the best benefits in the industry and keep their workers cushy they'll also have complete control over them. This is because when you're at the top of the food chain, very few people are actually willing to put their money where their mouth is and take meaningful action. It's deliciously hypocritical to see Google workers here (and HN posters in general) lament Facebook wor…

Google will learn from the Chinese implementation and come back to President Trump in his second term (or Bernie) for its implementation in the USA

Re: Google Employees Uncover Ongoing Work on Censored China Search

#119

Post by est » Tue, Mar 05, 2019, 3:59 AM UTC

cromwellian wrote: post #82

est wrote: post #24

AdSense China grew 60% last year. Yeah Google is making a profit in China. which need some kind of tool to support it. Maybe harvest list of content you are not allowed to advertise with?

AFAIK, That's Chinese companies using AdSense to advertise in Western markets, it's not "AdSense in China". I've never seen a single Chinese website using AdSense.

Maybe the "Chinese-feeling-friendly" ads is a growing requirement in Western markets. No chinese wish to see their country is a shithole from AdSense.

Re: Google Employees Uncover Ongoing Work on Censored China Search

#120

Post by pcwalton » Tue, Mar 05, 2019, 3:59 AM UTC

sytelus wrote: post #80

math_and_stuff wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Pushback from employees, human rights groups, and congress has already significantly set back the project. The fight has to continue, but I don't understand your defeatism. Source: I publicly resigned from Google over dragonfly and dedicated months of my life and income to fighting it.

I admire you courage but have you considered the possibility that you might be wrong on this? Probability that China would change anything because of lack of Google products is about zero. In fact, not having Google benefits them even more because now there is no one reviewing of any censorship rules. If Google is there (1) they can minimize censorship as much as possible by pushing back frequently (2) people in Chin…

> My theory is that even if Chinese government was toppled, the replacement would still have same characteristics because that is the expectation that people have from their government.

Taiwan is a counterexample.