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Sobriety startups shaking up the 12-step model

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Re: Sobriety startups shaking up the 12-step model

#111

For something supposedly so good on it's own, religion really does try it's best to target vulnerable people. Naive children, desperate people, people who have lost someone, people sick with addiction (referencing the submitting to the higher power step). Whatever helps during trying times I guess. It just seems to me if religion was so great on its own, it would be approached in a calm rational manner targeted at ma…

My own sense is that the religions of the world are mostly in agreement about the following things:

* renunciation of self

* acceptance of the world / reality, including suffering

* love of mankind

* love of the gift of life

Religion as an institution, however, is something different than the "message" contained within the sacred texts or traditions of religions (lower-case r).

Some religion attracts fanatics, those who believe "We are right and everyone else is wrong." Within that statement there is a marked absence of acceptance, love of mankind, love of life.

There is also spiritual pride, which is more subtle. In Christ's parable of the pharisee and the publican, we see the publican, who prays in all humility for God's mercy, and the pharisee, who thanks God that he is better than the publican. And many Christians reading that parable will think, "and thank God I'm not like the pharisee"!

Re: Sobriety startups shaking up the 12-step model

#112
post #11

After years and years of struggling with alcoholism and AA, I got sober with naltrexone using the "Sinclair Method". I followed the treatment plan for a few weeks and at the end quitting drinking was easy and obvious. That was just over ten years ago and I haven't had a drink or gone to any meetings since. I'm only one person and I'm fully aware that the plural of anecdote isn't data. However, the experience was so d…

Wouldn't you consider beating an addiction to actually being able to take one or two drinks and leaving it at there? In other words, if you're constantly counting the days without a drink and struggle with yourself to not drink, are you really "cured" from the addiction?

Truly curing it would mean that. But you've still beaten the addiction if you can stay away, and beating the addiction is by far the important part for your health.

Re: Sobriety startups shaking up the 12-step model

#113

If you consider addiction as a psychological and physical dependence on a chemical what healthcare professional would design a program like AA? Seven of the 12 steps involve God. It also reinforces the 'moral failure' stigma attached to the person. You drink too much for a reason, not because you are a bad person. It's likely due to genetic and environmental factors. ohh and you can die from withdrawal (unlike most o…

The AA steps were constructed in a culturally-Christian environment, for people who are also culturally-Christian, even if they’re atheists. (I.e., they are people who were taught Christian messages and then maybe rejected them, and who also have a mostly-Christian community around them.) Thus, they have to be read through this lens.

Basically, if you want to “translate” the AA steps for the modern era where things aren’t so culturally-Christian, try replacing “God” with “a Church congregation-community”, where a “Church” is any social technology designed for taking a group of average people and trying to extract the best, most empathetic/humanist/“moral” group behavior out of them.

When AA says to rely on the “power of God” which is “strong” while your own willpower is “weak”, what they’re really saying, stripping away the culturally-Christian assumptions, is to rely on the social technology of a Church-like organization to amplify and backstop your willpower in various ways.

• Most Church-like organizations, regardless of religion, have a membership that strive to practice moderation in things like drinking, so switching your “community” to be that of the Church-like organization means switching your friends (maybe people who love to go out and get drunk?) for people who don’t. (This is a similar idea to why some people say prisoners are better off paroled: the last people you want prisoners around are other prisoners. You want them around good role-models, not bad ones, if you want them rehabilitated.)

• Most Church-like organizations provide access to a confidant and therapist (in Christian churches, that’d be the priest.) If you bond with this confidant-and-therapist figure, you’ll feel less bad about temporary failures, because you’ll have someone to tell who will help you get back on the horse, rather than shunning you for your failure.

• In most Church-like organizations, if you don’t attend the regular community meetings, the community members will get worried about you and check up on you. This will help prevent you from degenerating further after falling off the wagon.

AA is already a bridge between two worlds; although it is constructed under a culturally-Christian lens, it assumes that its attendeees are not necessarily members of any Church-like organization. So one of the goals of AA group meetings is to be a Church-like organization, for people who don’t attend Church. It pushes you “back” toward the Christian Church because it knows it can’t help you forever and wants you to find a more permanent Church-like organization to help you. This is similar to how psychiatrists encourage people who are stable on a maintenance dose of some drug to stop seeing them, by instead getting a family doctor (if they don’t already have one) and getting the family doctor to perscribe the maintenance dose of the drug.

I think that, while AA could be rephrased to not be culturally-Christian, it’d be very hard to replace its insistence on accepting some kind of religious Church-like organization into your life... because there really just aren’t that many non-religious Church-like organizations. If there were, maybe there’d be fewer alcoholics.

Re: Sobriety startups shaking up the 12-step model

#114
post #11

After years and years of struggling with alcoholism and AA, I got sober with naltrexone using the "Sinclair Method". I followed the treatment plan for a few weeks and at the end quitting drinking was easy and obvious. That was just over ten years ago and I haven't had a drink or gone to any meetings since. I'm only one person and I'm fully aware that the plural of anecdote isn't data. However, the experience was so d…

Wouldn't you consider beating an addiction to actually being able to take one or two drinks and leaving it at there? In other words, if you're constantly counting the days without a drink and struggle with yourself to not drink, are you really "cured" from the addiction?

Every person i've ever met that's quit an addiction has never thought of themselves as cured. They may not partake in they're substance of choice any more but they've all still called themselves addicts and think about their substances still.

As far as the counting the days thing I think I agree with you on that. A couple years ago a friend of mine was struggling to quit their drug addiction. For almost a year they would count the days or weeks between the times they 'fucked up' as my friend called it. In the end after some pretty bad things happening and a few times almost losing their life. My friend got serious about it and they've been over a year now clean. The thing is this time my friend hasn't been counting the days or thinking about how long it's been. They've just been getting on trying to rebuild their life and avoiding the people and things that used to be part their addiction and I think it's made a big difference.

Re: Sobriety startups shaking up the 12-step model

#115
post #78
post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You really naltrexone when you drink, and only when you drink. They also advise drinking somewhat frequently at the start so your brain can quickly break the connection between alcohol and having a really good time. Once it is broken you do need to continue using naltrexone every time you want a drink or over time you will go back to being addicted. But it is generic and not expensive to get.

I’m confused. When I googled Naltrexone, it warns: “Alcohol: Avoid. Very serious interactions can occur”. So are you supposed to take it hours before drinking or something else?

> When I googled Naltrexone, it warns: “Alcohol: Avoid. Very serious interactions can occur”.

The whole point of using Naltrexone to treat alcohol abuse is to use the adverse reactions to foster aversion to counteract the desire to drink.

Re: Sobriety startups shaking up the 12-step model

#116
post #72
post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "We're not proponents of complete abstinence. There probably is an amount of drinking that's OK," LoConte told NPR in June. "But from a cancer-prevention standpoint, drinking the least amount of alcohol possible would be the best strategy." I always found defending your drinking with the "a glass of wine a day is good for your heart" study a bit lame. But advocating abstinence because no level of alcohol is safe is…

Saying something is ok in moderation always defines moderation relative to the harm. This study puts moderation very low ~1-2 glasses of wine a month. Studies focused on different forms of harm have different thresholds, but you get all forms of harm not just what a specific study looks at. Saying I accept the harm for this benefit is fine, but pretending it does not exist is irrational.

Ignoring the harm of the alternatives is also irrational. If you remove the wine you replace the calories with something else, and that will have its own risk numbers. Some studies sort of average that in but an average isn't nearly as good as numbers for specific items. You can't reasonably extrapolate total risk from one or two diseases either.

Dealing with tiny risk factors is very difficult, and it's easy to make the wrong conclusions. See also the vast majority of reporting on whether x food is good or bad for you.

Re: Sobriety startups shaking up the 12-step model

#117
post #11

After years and years of struggling with alcoholism and AA, I got sober with naltrexone using the "Sinclair Method". I followed the treatment plan for a few weeks and at the end quitting drinking was easy and obvious. That was just over ten years ago and I haven't had a drink or gone to any meetings since. I'm only one person and I'm fully aware that the plural of anecdote isn't data. However, the experience was so d…

Wouldn't you consider beating an addiction to actually being able to take one or two drinks and leaving it at there? In other words, if you're constantly counting the days without a drink and struggle with yourself to not drink, are you really "cured" from the addiction?

It's not a struggle to not drink (other than potential social impacts).

The problem is that once you start you have a set of well-worn reward pathways in your brain that want more of it.

A true cure would need to look at neuroplastic, genetic, and environmental factors that lead to an addiction response. But what's the point when you can just not drink, which is unhealthy anyway.

Re: Sobriety startups shaking up the 12-step model

#118
post #9

The christian part is a barrier for atheists and agnostics that would otherwise be OK with participating in Alcoholics Anonymous. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Alcoholics_Anonymou...

I'm not sure why, it may be a regional thing but I attend meetings in support for someone else and there are plenty of people who do not believe in God and state as such. I believe the third step even agrees, though I may be misinterpreting it: "Made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of God as we understood Him." The "as we understood Him", while most likely still referring to God, is what is…

> I find the program a bit cultish

I have shared in meetings that I sometimes think AA/NA is a cult. Everyone understood. And over time I've come to see the importance of the word "Anonymous", which is found in the name (obviously) but also in the traditions, and means exactly this: that everyone is equal within the group. There is no "great leader", nobody that is "right", nobody that is "wrong". It is about sharing one's experience -- the things one has done, the actions one has taken -- which speak for themselves.

> and don't agree that telling people they are helpless is the right way to help them

The actual word is "powerless", not "helpless". And this powerlessness describes:

- the addict's inability to stop despite earnest and sincere desire.

- the inability, once clean for a short time, to keep from returning to drug use

Before I started attending 12-step, I had read the Bible, Marcus Aurelius, Tao Te Ching, various self-help books, The Power of Now, How to Win Friends and Influence People, and on and on and on. I had within me all the beliefs and understanding needed to live in a good way, in accordance with my principles. In short, to live with dignity. And yet I could not live according to my own principles. This wasn't just about drug use...it was about being patient, kind, tolerant, loving, helpful. I think that's the root of the powerlessness talked about in AA/NA. What I've found is that, with the belief in a higher power, I'm able to go to bed with a sense of dignity most days.

Re: Sobriety startups shaking up the 12-step model

#119
post #95
post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m confused. When I googled Naltrexone, it warns: “Alcohol: Avoid. Very serious interactions can occur”. So are you supposed to take it hours before drinking or something else?

It is Definitely safe to take with alcohol. Not sure where your seeing that it's not.

> It is Definitely safe to take with alcohol. Not sure where your seeing that it's not.

“It is for some people less unsafe, in a very specific treatment model, with alcohol than continuing untreated alcohol dependence is” would be more accurate.

Re: Sobriety startups shaking up the 12-step model

#120
post #74
post #11

After years and years of struggling with alcoholism and AA, I got sober with naltrexone using the "Sinclair Method". I followed the treatment plan for a few weeks and at the end quitting drinking was easy and obvious. That was just over ten years ago and I haven't had a drink or gone to any meetings since. I'm only one person and I'm fully aware that the plural of anecdote isn't data. However, the experience was so d…

Does this only work for alcoholism, or does naltrexone work for any compulsive behaviour?

I believe I read that Dr. Sinclair was thinking Naltrexone could also be used to help with any sort of addiction such as smoking or overeating. I don't think there is any clinical research to support this though in the same way there is research supporting its effectiveness with alcoholism.
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