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Monarch butterfly populations in U.S. west are down an order of magnitude

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Re: Monarch butterfly populations in U.S. west are down an order of magnitude

#111

Post by aw3c2 »

campercoder wrote: post #84
Flozzin wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was going to mention the same thing. I too up until the puerto rico article blamed insecticides. But something much larger seems to be going on. https://www.washingtonpost.com/science/2018/10/15/hyperalarm...

Climate change is causing this. Every ecoystem on Earth took 10s of millions of years to find it's equilibrium. Everything living in those ecosystems is a product of millions of years of adaptation and evolution. If you go and change the temperature, the amount of water & the seasons, then it is a big rug pull under the feet of evolution. Everything can and will collapse. Look at what is happening in the arctic... no…

You are posting hyperbole, millions of years is a bad measure to tell people that human influence is affecting. There is no equilibrium either, nature changes a lot. Look at temperature history, big changes happened again and again. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_temperature_record#/med...

Re: Monarch butterfly populations in U.S. west are down an order of magnitude

#112

Post by philipps »

sfvisser wrote: post #73
eksemplar wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don’t think the insect apocalypse is getting its attention stolen by climate change. I just don’t think enough people care. I mean, look at France. They are having violent riots because the gas prices were increased to fight climate change. I know that it’s easy for me, a relatively wealthy Scandinavian, to not worry about gas prices, but even if these people are struggling to make ends meet, they are right now, ac…

I think the people in France are acting very rational here. The artifical increase in gas prices directly hits their state of being right now and that of their kids. There is no uncertainty about that. Global warning may or may not make life shitty in some future scenario. Why do they, who are already poor, need to pay the price right now? I think most people rather want to be not poor in a world with global warning…

“Global warming may or may not make life shitty in some future scenario.”

I think you’re trying to rationalize the position of the protesters, but this is a dangerous rationalization.

Arguing that it “may or may not” lead to catastrophic consequences leaves the door open for doubt.

I understand if poor people or nations are frustrated, and I agree that the rich have a responsibility to show leadership, but there should be no doubt that climate change will most negatively affect the poor.

Re: Monarch butterfly populations in U.S. west are down an order of magnitude

#113

Post by jenks »

M O N S A N T O.

Please take a few moment to research the once ammunition production companies history, and current power in the world farming industry.

https://www.organicconsumers.org/campaigns/millions-against-...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KAZmHIiN8VI

It's not ironic that the company which had an instrumental impact on creating the polonium-based initiators in atomic bombs during the Manhattan Project still continues creating world-ending technologies today.

Re: Monarch butterfly populations in U.S. west are down an order of magnitude

#114

Post by maxerickson »

NeedMoreTea wrote: post #99
maxerickson wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For the most part, our calorie crops do not rely on insects. For example, corn is wind pollinated and wheat, soy, rice and potatoes are self pollinating. Having reduced access to things like almonds and apples is gonna suck, but even with 0 insects it's still going to be reduced access, as hand pollination is quite a fast process.

I wonder how easy, or affordable, it will be to maintain a balanced diet if all insect pollinated fruit and veg becomes unavailable. Quite apart from the tendency of people to like tasty and varied food over dull but sufficient intake. More importantly I wonder what unforeseen unintended consequences will arise from disassembling food chains, after we've lost those species, and it's too late.

I'm not dismissing the consequences of mass insect die off, I'm dismissing mass starvation as one of them. I guess expecting people to link "calorie crops" to "mass starvation" is high.

Re: Monarch butterfly populations in U.S. west are down an order of magnitude

#115

Post by monktastic1 »

cryptonector wrote: post #7

This seems like part of the insect apocalypse story, and bee colony collapse disorder. All probably caused by overuse of insecticides. Note that if we don't find a way to correct this, it can be catastrophic on a timescale that makes the most alarmist climate change predictions seem like nothing. There must be some percentage of normal insect population density below which population of frogs and birds and what not w…

It seems to me that all of these problems -- the insect apocalypse, general biodiversity loss, climate change, all the way to the depression and anxiety epidemics, economic inequity, etc., stem from the same general principle: our alienation from ourselves, each other, and nature. In a sense, healing any one of them will contribute to healing all of them. And trying to merely engineer our way out of any of them (while preserving the underlying mindset) will just cause more of the same to rear its ugly head elsewhere. We've forgotten that this life is a magical, wondrous, precious gift, and the world is worth loving and caring for. We have to stop treating it as -- and thereby turning it into -- mere "stuff." It's alive.

If you're a fan of this line of reasoning, I recommend the author Charles Eisenstein.

Re: Monarch butterfly populations in U.S. west are down an order of magnitude

#116

Post by azeotropic »

empath75 wrote: post #101
cryptonector wrote: post #7

This seems like part of the insect apocalypse story, and bee colony collapse disorder. All probably caused by overuse of insecticides. Note that if we don't find a way to correct this, it can be catastrophic on a timescale that makes the most alarmist climate change predictions seem like nothing. There must be some percentage of normal insect population density below which population of frogs and birds and what not w…

Forget the frogs. If we don’t have insects we don’t have food.

Actually, most staple crops are wind pollinated.

Re: Monarch butterfly populations in U.S. west are down an order of magnitude

#117

Post by gdubs »

cryptonector wrote: post #49
the8472 wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're assuming that's just due to insecticides. Insects are exposed to multiple stressors. One of them also happens to be global warming. Others are habitat loss, insecticides, invasive species, etc. In fact the researchers measuring the loss of insect biomass in puerto rico rainforests attributed it primarily to climate change since the other factors do not apply there.

The variations in surface temperature we have seen in the modern era are nothing compared to what we've seen in the recent geological record. Moreover, insects are very sturdy throughout the geological record, so it's very difficult to believe that less than 1C change in a century could cause this (the end of the last glacial period saw a 7C swing in just a few hundred years). It's pretty clear that climate change is…

Obligatory Xkcd link: https://xkcd.com/1732/

Re: Monarch butterfly populations in U.S. west are down an order of magnitude

#118

Post by filoeleven »

aw3c2 wrote: post #111
campercoder wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Climate change is causing this. Every ecoystem on Earth took 10s of millions of years to find it's equilibrium. Everything living in those ecosystems is a product of millions of years of adaptation and evolution. If you go and change the temperature, the amount of water & the seasons, then it is a big rug pull under the feet of evolution. Everything can and will collapse. Look at what is happening in the arctic... no…

You are posting hyperbole, millions of years is a bad measure to tell people that human influence is affecting. There is no equilibrium either, nature changes a lot. Look at temperature history, big changes happened again and again. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_temperature_record#/med...

When people say “the climate has changed before,” these are the kinds of changes they are talking about. https://xkcd.com/1732/

You’re right, there is no equilibrium. But there is a limit to how rapidly any system can handle changes while remaining recognizable as the same system.

Re: Monarch butterfly populations in U.S. west are down an order of magnitude

#119

Post by zcid »

stinos wrote: post #71
trgn wrote: post #4

I planted milkweed in my front yard. These plants don't come cheap, between 10-20$ at the nursery for a young plant. I never was able to grow them from seed. Anyways, the plants did attract a few monarchs late summer/early fall. I counted two. I planted nine total. I got a code violation warning last month for not mowing my front yard and having overgrown "landscape weeds".

I got a code violation warning last month for not mowing my front yard and having overgrown "landscape weeds" This is ... fascinating for me. For a number of reasons. Like, it's the exact opposite of what I do with my 'lawn' and makes me feel naive and like I've been living under a rock for not realizing there are places where people actually get warnings for this. Can you elaborate in what kind of place you live, wh…

On top of what jazzyjackson said, a lot of people correlate well-manicured lawns with property value. For instance, quite a few place won't allow vegetable gardens in the front yard. It gives an impression of poverty. Which makes me wander what is the best word for modern suburban aesthetic. Sterility?

Re: Monarch butterfly populations in U.S. west are down an order of magnitude

#120

Post by campercoder »

aw3c2 wrote: post #111
campercoder wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Climate change is causing this. Every ecoystem on Earth took 10s of millions of years to find it's equilibrium. Everything living in those ecosystems is a product of millions of years of adaptation and evolution. If you go and change the temperature, the amount of water & the seasons, then it is a big rug pull under the feet of evolution. Everything can and will collapse. Look at what is happening in the arctic... no…

You are posting hyperbole, millions of years is a bad measure to tell people that human influence is affecting. There is no equilibrium either, nature changes a lot. Look at temperature history, big changes happened again and again. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_temperature_record#/med...

Yup, it's about the rate of change. Sucking 10s of millions of years worth of sequestered carbon out of the ground and injecting into the atmosphere over just 100 years is complete and utter suicide. For all living things on our planet.
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