Monarch butterfly populations in U.S. west are down an order of magnitude • Hacker News Board

Re: Monarch butterfly populations in U.S. west are down an order of magnitude

#91

Post by pojzon » Sun, Dec 02, 2018, 11:08 AM UTC

gerhardi wrote: post #85

smhost wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

agreed. 100 companies are responsible for 70% of global emissions, and you're punishing the people? come on, that's not right.

Do you think that those companies would exist in their current form without the consumers (/the actual population) buying stuff made by those companies?

Average joe is not educated enough/has to worry about everyday living, to actually pay attention to those companies practices. Its on the goverment to regulate them in such a way that would allow our spicies to thrive in the future.

Unfortunetely fast gain motion sparked by capitalism is also in the vains of people responsible for legiatlation.

Humans have too many self-destruct mechanisms embedded in them to accomplish anything in the long run as a civilisation. We either have to change drastically or face extinction. Untill the people who CAN make a difference start to care - there is not a lot masses can do. Grouping in modern age to the size that can influence those people at power is very hard.

Re: Monarch butterfly populations in U.S. west are down an order of magnitude

#92

Post by jazzyjackson » Sun, Dec 02, 2018, 11:10 AM UTC

stinos wrote: post #71

trgn wrote: post #4

I planted milkweed in my front yard. These plants don't come cheap, between 10-20$ at the nursery for a young plant. I never was able to grow them from seed. Anyways, the plants did attract a few monarchs late summer/early fall. I counted two. I planted nine total. I got a code violation warning last month for not mowing my front yard and having overgrown "landscape weeds".

I got a code violation warning last month for not mowing my front yard and having overgrown "landscape weeds" This is ... fascinating for me. For a number of reasons. Like, it's the exact opposite of what I do with my 'lawn' and makes me feel naive and like I've been living under a rock for not realizing there are places where people actually get warnings for this. Can you elaborate in what kind of place you live, wh…

Residential neighborhoods don't want nature.

Nature means snakes, possums, bats, all kinds of critters that do well with lots of small brush and tall grass and then find themselves inside somebody's house.

That's the reason I was given to not plant lots of brush around a house I was renting. If you make the land around the houses inhospitable to life, you're less likely to have life living in your air vents, attic, etc. Just a perspective to why lawns are kept tight.

Re: Monarch butterfly populations in U.S. west are down an order of magnitude

#93

Post by speedplane » Sun, Dec 02, 2018, 11:13 AM UTC

crispinb wrote: post #87

All our evolved natural systems are collapsing, and are being replaced by crude early-stage technological ones. "Fighting" each as a separate policy issue is a continuation of the fluffy-minded & neurotic economic/business attitude which cannot cope with facing physical reality. We're almost certainly stuffed. This was probably always inevitable, because the naked ape likely lacks whatever capacities might be needed…

Can I take the cynical extreme long term view for a second?

No matter how much we destroy our planet, it's damage will be a blink of an eye in cosmological terms. Even if we nearly exterminate all other species, plenty of genetic material will survive by dumb chance alone, and in a few million years there will be a whole other ecosystem/society to worry about.

Earth doesn't care about biodiversity, beauty, or longevity, even if we mess it up, it'll be able to recover in its lifetime.

Re: Monarch butterfly populations in U.S. west are down an order of magnitude

#94

Post by crispinb » Sun, Dec 02, 2018, 11:19 AM UTC

speedplane wrote: post #93

crispinb wrote: post #87

All our evolved natural systems are collapsing, and are being replaced by crude early-stage technological ones. "Fighting" each as a separate policy issue is a continuation of the fluffy-minded & neurotic economic/business attitude which cannot cope with facing physical reality. We're almost certainly stuffed. This was probably always inevitable, because the naked ape likely lacks whatever capacities might be needed…

Can I take the cynical extreme long term view for a second? No matter how much we destroy our planet, it's damage will be a blink of an eye in cosmological terms. Even if we nearly exterminate all other species, plenty of genetic material will survive by dumb chance alone, and in a few million years there will be a whole other ecosystem/society to worry about. Earth doesn't care about biodiversity, beauty, or longevi…

We depend on the evolved complex systems that sustain a planetary-scale agricultural society. Taking a sufficiently large-scale view, perhaps not even the survival of the planet "matters" (surely there are other planets? other ecologies?). But that's no-one's actual viewpoint. We live here.

Re: Monarch butterfly populations in U.S. west are down an order of magnitude

#95

Post by Espressosaurus » Sun, Dec 02, 2018, 11:22 AM UTC

speedplane wrote: post #93

crispinb wrote: post #87

All our evolved natural systems are collapsing, and are being replaced by crude early-stage technological ones. "Fighting" each as a separate policy issue is a continuation of the fluffy-minded & neurotic economic/business attitude which cannot cope with facing physical reality. We're almost certainly stuffed. This was probably always inevitable, because the naked ape likely lacks whatever capacities might be needed…

Can I take the cynical extreme long term view for a second? No matter how much we destroy our planet, it's damage will be a blink of an eye in cosmological terms. Even if we nearly exterminate all other species, plenty of genetic material will survive by dumb chance alone, and in a few million years there will be a whole other ecosystem/society to worry about. Earth doesn't care about biodiversity, beauty, or longevi…

It's a long view, sure, but it's one that doesn't include humans. Most people would like humans to be around.

The conditions under which we live won't be in play if the fisheries all collapse and the clathrate gun fires.

Re: Monarch butterfly populations in U.S. west are down an order of magnitude

#96

Post by crispinb » Sun, Dec 02, 2018, 11:28 AM UTC

robotbikes wrote: post #90

crispinb wrote: post #87

All our evolved natural systems are collapsing, and are being replaced by crude early-stage technological ones. "Fighting" each as a separate policy issue is a continuation of the fluffy-minded & neurotic economic/business attitude which cannot cope with facing physical reality. We're almost certainly stuffed. This was probably always inevitable, because the naked ape likely lacks whatever capacities might be needed…

It is certainly hard to not react with extreme cynicism to the daily onslaught of negative feedback from determining our world is suffering and good portions of are dying. But we need to as entities capable of thought and planning attempt to try new ways of coordinating our activities. We built a global communication network that allows us to talk in theory to any other living being on the planet with minimal effort…

The ecological collapses are now occurring at such a rapid pace that it would require a turnaround of unprecendented ambition, starting right now. The race isn't exactly against natural systems breaking down - that's a process that's going to continue for millenia. It's against the fragility of our own societies, built on human constitutions designed by evolution to operate effectively at far smaller scales.

Tiny perturbations (compared to what's coming) cause major social convulsions (eg. Europe 2015). What do you think will happen when billions of climate change refugees flood the world? When the first agricultural collapses occur? Wars will sweep the world, what exists of global cooperation will cease, and a positive feedback loop ensues.

Re: Monarch butterfly populations in U.S. west are down an order of magnitude

#97

Post by speedplane » Sun, Dec 02, 2018, 11:31 AM UTC

Espressosaurus wrote: post #95

speedplane wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can I take the cynical extreme long term view for a second? No matter how much we destroy our planet, it's damage will be a blink of an eye in cosmological terms. Even if we nearly exterminate all other species, plenty of genetic material will survive by dumb chance alone, and in a few million years there will be a whole other ecosystem/society to worry about. Earth doesn't care about biodiversity, beauty, or longevi…

It's a long view, sure, but it's one that doesn't include humans. Most people would like humans to be around. The conditions under which we live won't be in play if the fisheries all collapse and the clathrate gun fires.

People want people around. People want endangered species around. However, civilization has been around for roughly 20,000 years, and modern civilization for roughly 100 years.

If earth was a person and we all lived on it's tummy, everything humans ever existed would still be an eye-blick.

Re: Monarch butterfly populations in U.S. west are down an order of magnitude

#98

Post by TazeTSchnitzel » Sun, Dec 02, 2018, 11:41 AM UTC

eksemplar wrote: post #62

cryptonector wrote: post #7

This seems like part of the insect apocalypse story, and bee colony collapse disorder. All probably caused by overuse of insecticides. Note that if we don't find a way to correct this, it can be catastrophic on a timescale that makes the most alarmist climate change predictions seem like nothing. There must be some percentage of normal insect population density below which population of frogs and birds and what not w…

I don’t think the insect apocalypse is getting its attention stolen by climate change. I just don’t think enough people care. I mean, look at France. They are having violent riots because the gas prices were increased to fight climate change. I know that it’s easy for me, a relatively wealthy Scandinavian, to not worry about gas prices, but even if these people are struggling to make ends meet, they are right now, ac…

I think people being upset about rising fossil fuel taxes are not unreasonable. It hurts them in their immediate day to day lives. The government could try methods of fighting climate change that hurt them less.

Re: Monarch butterfly populations in U.S. west are down an order of magnitude

#99

Post by NeedMoreTea » Sun, Dec 02, 2018, 11:46 AM UTC

maxerickson wrote: post #58

ip26 wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ironclad facts, science, studies, & research are great. However, if we are facing imminent collapse of pollinator populations (which would lead to a lot of human suffering) the precautionary principal starts to look interesting. In other words, if we run the risk of population collapse within ten years, and population collapse will lead to crop failure and mass starvation & death, but rigorous studies on cause will t…

For the most part, our calorie crops do not rely on insects. For example, corn is wind pollinated and wheat, soy, rice and potatoes are self pollinating. Having reduced access to things like almonds and apples is gonna suck, but even with 0 insects it's still going to be reduced access, as hand pollination is quite a fast process.

I wonder how easy, or affordable, it will be to maintain a balanced diet if all insect pollinated fruit and veg becomes unavailable. Quite apart from the tendency of people to like tasty and varied food over dull but sufficient intake.

More importantly I wonder what unforeseen unintended consequences will arise from disassembling food chains, after we've lost those species, and it's too late.

Re: Monarch butterfly populations in U.S. west are down an order of magnitude

#100

Post by sokoloff » Sun, Dec 02, 2018, 11:47 AM UTC

code_duck wrote: post #75

sokoloff wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Though I agree with the end effect, the reality is closer to “let’s pay a landscape company to take care of this thing that isn’t our core business” (perfectly rational) and then the landscape company figures out the most cost-effective way to accomplish that. If that lens is correct, asking people to forego landscape services isn’t the right response, but rather to better educate and/or regulate landscaping services…

The choice of landscaping materials and chemicals is ultimately up to the customer. Ideally, people would be aware and care that a landscaping company is needlessly pouring poison all over their property. The best plan would be to design spaces that don’t ‘need’ weedkiller or leaf blowing.

Anyone with 480 locations probably isn't making detailed selections on chemicals used by their landscaping contractors.