Time to End Factory Farming? • Hacker News Board

Re: Time to End Factory Farming?

#111

Post by liftbigweights » Sat, Oct 20, 2018, 4:56 PM UTC

latch wrote: post #2

How can you be against cruelty to animals and still regularly consume meat? This question I ask sincerely. There are other equally ethical considerations: global warming, land use, energy/water use, etc. I feel that any one of these should give most people pause.

> How can you be against cruelty to animals and still regularly consume meat?

What does one have to do with the other? Most livestock live rather comfortable lives compared to their wild counterparts. Less disease, less parasites and of course less predators.

> This question I ask sincerely.

I doubt it. Your question is as absurd as a plant lover asking how you can be against cruelty and eat vegetation? Vegetation is life. The fruit you eat is actually a plant's ovaries and uterus. How disgusting and cruel is that? Or ask a vegan why they have cats and dogs as pets. They are carnivores that eat meat. How can you be against cruelty and own pets?

> There are other equally ethical considerations: global warming, land use, energy/water use, etc. I feel that any one of these should give most people pause.

Then why are you using a computer or smartphone? Do you wear clothes? It's made from cheap labor on the other side of the world? Do you drive a car or use public transportion? What about heat or the AC? Is your home cooled or heated? Why aren't so considerate?

Other than to feel superior and virtue signal, there is no good reason not to eat meat. It's true that we eat too much meat, but we are omnivores. That's the diet we are meant to eat. Veganism is a poor and unnatural diet for humans. I was a vegan for a few months. I know the scam.

Humans are part of nature. It is natural for humans to consume meat. That's why prey animals and livestock exist.

Re: Time to End Factory Farming?

#112

Post by slacka » Sat, Oct 20, 2018, 5:10 PM UTC

m000 wrote: post #63

elbasti wrote: post #24

About three months ago I decided to stop purchasing factory-farmed meat. It's been pretty difficult for a few reasons. The biggest reason, by far, is access to information. Roughly, I would like to purchase only meat from animals that lived a "happy" life and had a relatively short death. Animals that lived outdoors, basically. But there are no credible labels or certifications for this, which means buying meat at th…

Labeling/certifying packaged and processed meats based on the animal living conditions is already happening in the Netherlands. There is a one to three star rating called Beter Leven Keurmerk (Better Living Quality Mark). This is stamped on the packaging of most animal products sold in grocery stores. The meaning of the stars for each kind of animal is explained on their website: https://beterleven.dierenbescherming.…

I also saw this labeling when I was in Spain. For example, I often saw pork labeled as "Acorn-fed, pasture raised pigs". Beyond the labeling, their culture seems place a higher value over quality food compared to Americans who seems to value cheap food.

I've traveled to both the American farmland and Spanish countryside. The difference is night and day. In America's factory farm areas, the animals are crowed in mud/feces, whose stench can be smelled for miles away. In Spain, the animals were happily grazing in lush pasture land.

I believe this is a consumer demand issue. America is a rich nation. The question my mind is why do European countries like Span and Netherlands have such difference values?

Re: Time to End Factory Farming?

#113

Post by UncleEntity » Sat, Oct 20, 2018, 5:14 PM UTC

hkai wrote: post #99

elbasti wrote: post #24

About three months ago I decided to stop purchasing factory-farmed meat. It's been pretty difficult for a few reasons. The biggest reason, by far, is access to information. Roughly, I would like to purchase only meat from animals that lived a "happy" life and had a relatively short death. Animals that lived outdoors, basically. But there are no credible labels or certifications for this, which means buying meat at th…

How would you respond to the author of the article who dismisses free-range meat as similar to being a good slaveowner or killing people painlessly in a genocide?

As a false equivalence fallacy...

Re: Time to End Factory Farming?

#114

Post by cimmanom » Sat, Oct 20, 2018, 5:15 PM UTC

latch wrote: post #2

How can you be against cruelty to animals and still regularly consume meat? This question I ask sincerely. There are other equally ethical considerations: global warming, land use, energy/water use, etc. I feel that any one of these should give most people pause.

By defining one's terms (for instance, I think factory farming is cruel, but that killing animals is not - provided the death is swift and as painless as we're able to make it) and accepting one's own hypocrisy.

In my case, I simply recognize that I do not have sufficient self-discipline to remain fully healthy on a vegetarian (let alone vegan) diet. And that I'd rather be a hypocrite than sick or dead.

And even acknowledging that, one can take measures to minimize one's impact. I consume a lot of eggs for protein and vitamins, and almost never prepare meat at home, though I'll eat it at other people's homes, restaurants, etc. I pay a little extra for pasture-raised eggs in the hope that those chickens have slightly less awful lives than the ones packed head to toe in barns. I eat dairy substitutes instead of actual dairy for many purposes (though not almond milk, which I dislike and is absolutely terrible for the environment).

As soon as lab-grown meat becomes a viable substitute (within, say, double the price), I'll gladly switch to that.

If you ask millions or billions of people to completely change their lives and eliminate something that they find pleasurable, all but a tiny percentage will either reject the idea outright or find they don't have the willpower to change. Willpower is hard; everyone has a finite amount of it in a given day; and we have to apply it constantly to a thousand other temptations of modern life.

If you ask people to cut back a bit on things and make some compromises, you're more likely to get cooperation. And 50% of the population cutting their meat consumption even by 20% gets you a lot further than 5% eliminating it from their diet entirely.

Re: Time to End Factory Farming?

#115

Post by anonuser123456 » Sat, Oct 20, 2018, 5:18 PM UTC

Noos wrote: post #109

This article is wishful thinking, with no real evidence of what the author is saying is viable or desired by many people. I'm not sure why it is here, since it is pure ideology with no real scientific backing.

The brain structures present in mammals and humans that process suffering are very similar. That is basic neuroscience.

So maybe it's ok to make animals suffer, but at least have consistent ethics and agree it's ok to make people suffer.

Re: Time to End Factory Farming?

#116

Post by mrfusion » Sat, Oct 20, 2018, 5:20 PM UTC

elbasti wrote: post #24

About three months ago I decided to stop purchasing factory-farmed meat. It's been pretty difficult for a few reasons. The biggest reason, by far, is access to information. Roughly, I would like to purchase only meat from animals that lived a "happy" life and had a relatively short death. Animals that lived outdoors, basically. But there are no credible labels or certifications for this, which means buying meat at th…

Really good on you for doing that! Would you consider hunting as a source of meat? I’ve been thinking that might be a more ethical way to get meat.

I’ve never seen a breakdown on whether hunting is cost effective though.

Re: Time to End Factory Farming?

#117

Post by cbolton » Sat, Oct 20, 2018, 5:44 PM UTC

hkai wrote: post #99

elbasti wrote: post #24

About three months ago I decided to stop purchasing factory-farmed meat. It's been pretty difficult for a few reasons. The biggest reason, by far, is access to information. Roughly, I would like to purchase only meat from animals that lived a "happy" life and had a relatively short death. Animals that lived outdoors, basically. But there are no credible labels or certifications for this, which means buying meat at th…

How would you respond to the author of the article who dismisses free-range meat as similar to being a good slaveowner or killing people painlessly in a genocide?

Not OP but I would say it's still better than being a bad slave owner or killing people painfully in a genocide.

Re: Time to End Factory Farming?

#118

Post by orblivion » Sat, Oct 20, 2018, 5:56 PM UTC

toothbrush wrote: post #65

orblivion wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you help me interpret these jokes between you and your friends? "Boy this steak sure tastes good because that cow was suffering" This sort of callousness is a common theme. Is this the form the jokes were taking? I'd understand if it were making fun of the animal for getting killed so long as it was humane, and people who worry too much about them. I'd understand the idea of "yeah I know it's bad, what am I going…

I guess i don't have a hard time believing the parent. I can imagine some college-aged youngsters projecting machismo/signalling to their social group and not yet having the maturity to reflect on their actions, indeed especially in the context of changing social norms and how they'd be perceived 50 years down the line. In university i had numerous flatmates or friends-of-flatmates who, upon discovering i'm a vegetar…

Me too, I've experienced that before, and I see signs of it online today by post-college aged people. I'm just trying to sort out the difference between being too uptight and pointing out what their jokes are really implying. It's like "Okay, you're making fun of me for worrying about something you think is silly. That's fine. But what exactly are you saying in response? You _don't care at all_? Are you telling me that you're a sociopath?" It's the particular formulation of _some_ of these jabs that get me.

Even if they say something like "the cow was stupid anyway om nom nom" _that's different_ because at least they're not necessarily in favor of torturing the thing, and they give a reason why killing it humanely is different from killing a human humanely.

Re: Time to End Factory Farming?

#119

Post by orblivion » Sat, Oct 20, 2018, 5:57 PM UTC

wool_gather wrote: post #74

orblivion wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you help me interpret these jokes between you and your friends? "Boy this steak sure tastes good because that cow was suffering" This sort of callousness is a common theme. Is this the form the jokes were taking? I'd understand if it were making fun of the animal for getting killed so long as it was humane, and people who worry too much about them. I'd understand the idea of "yeah I know it's bad, what am I going…

The exact nature of the jokes isn't clear, but I'd say your last guess is the most likely: papering over one's own cognitive dissonance with dismissive "humor" is a pretty natural tactic.

Which tells me that these videos are indeed hitting the target, if eventually.

Re: Time to End Factory Farming?

#120

Post by tomjen3 » Sat, Oct 20, 2018, 5:57 PM UTC

specialist wrote: post #42

agumonkey wrote: post #25

Recently I do feel a global feeling of tiredness. The things we held as progress don't work, abundance feels void it seems now. Jobs aren't giving you a lot of money and even if so, it can't bring you much; we're all very high in material comfort. What we lack is appreciation and sharing. Maybe people will enjoy farming more, and doing things more because what we used to avoid to pursue ~higher jobs is now seen as bo…

I feels ya. A few years ago, I got pretty worked up about my state killing an entire wolf pack, just to protect some cows. So I got involved. I learned a lot. Ranchers are people too. I really loved these people. It was just one bad apple, deliberate repeat offender, causing all the problems. Everyone else was totally onboard towards creating a better future. Ranching is unsustainable. And they (the families) know it…

I am looking forward to the day we have high quality artificial meat, but how many jobs will that cost? Most farms (even not meat farms will produce feed for other animals), a big part of shipping and mostly everybody who works in meat packaging.

With automatic cars and factory meat, that will do a huge number on non coastal areas of the US. We need to take that into account for the planning process as well.