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Facebook Is Letting Job Advertisers Target Only Men

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Re: Facebook Is Letting Job Advertisers Target Only Men

#111

Post by ggggtez »

pteredactyl wrote: post #89
JamisonM wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The law says that it is "sexist" (i.e. discrimination) to target advertising in a way that denies qualified women the opportunity to apply for a particular job. In the end the net result of targeting only men is the same as refusing to hire women, it denies otherwise qualified women opportunities that they are deserving of. That this has a cost is understood by those who wrote the law, they decided those costs are wo…

Which law specifically states what you say? It's one thing to target a gender in your advertisement. It's another to deny someone a job based on their gender.

No women ever saw the ad, so how could they apply? The courts have ruled it's the same as denying qualified people the job. The opportunity was unfairly hidden from them.

Imagine the job posting was in the men's toilet. The company would have a hard time arguing women had fair notice.

Re: Facebook Is Letting Job Advertisers Target Only Men

#112

Post by ggggtez »

tathougies wrote: post #98
pteredactyl wrote: post #30

I don't understand the problem. The flipside would be they're letting Job Advertisers only target women. I wonder what those numbers look like: What percentage of job advertisers only target women? If I'm spending ad dollars, why would I not choose the most effective form of advertising for me? That's not to say they're not hiring women. In which case it'd be more dubious. Last week in the Bay Area I heard a TSA radi…

Right.. the government actually requires discrimination in its contracts through affirmative action....

Yes, because otherwise you have companies hiring 10 year olds to work in sweat shops. Don't act like government rules for fair employment are only good when it benefits you.

Re: Facebook Is Letting Job Advertisers Target Only Men

#113

Post by mcny »

meowface wrote: post #22
gascan wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I honestly don't even understand the purpose of advertising anything to only men or only women. If you pay per view, it's entirely rational to target towards the demographic that produces the most spend for your ad budget. Why would you waste money advertising, e.g., mascara or sanitary pads to men? Sure, there's probably some infinitesimal fraction of men who would be interested, but targeting them profitably is not…

In classic rubber duck-debugging style, I ended up realizing that as soon as I pressed submit. In that case I suppose it's not very ethically questionable for things that are very clearly 100% (within a minuscule margin of error) men's only (prostate health, etc.) or women's only (sanitary pads). I guess the real quandary is for stuff that's male-dominated like hard, dangerous physical labor (coal mining etc.), but n…

> a recruiter can statistically prove that the most efficient use of their advertising dollars to hire for a coal mining job is by targeting only men, 1) is it sexist and/or unethical, and 2) should it be legal?

I put this at the same level as only hiring women to teach elementary school. Yes, it is sexist and uneducated. No, it shouldn't be legal.

Re: Facebook Is Letting Job Advertisers Target Only Men

#114

Post by village-idiot »

gascan wrote: post #27
patmcc wrote: post #7

I'm a bit mixed about this; it is clearly discriminatory to publish a job ad that says "women need not apply", but it doesn't feel inherently discriminatory to advertise a job in, say, "Men's Health" but not "Cosmopolitan" magazine. Or to advertise on a particular television channel or program (whose viewers may not match the population at large). That's just how advertising works. Is that crazy? Would this be differ…

While I see both sides of the argument, as long as the advertiser pays per view, it seems wrong to require the listing to target demographics that are almost certainly uninterested. Your example of listing a job in Men's Health but not Cosmopolitan seems good. Technically not a perfect analogue as a woman always could buy Men's Health, but in practice very similar. Spinning off into a different angle, what if an adve…

The problem is that you have to determine the employer’s intent, which is hard.

Re: Facebook Is Letting Job Advertisers Target Only Men

#115

Post by ggggtez »

twblalock wrote: post #100
p1necone wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Male only employment ads are illegal, but does that mean Facebook should have to change their UI for each case where the rules around advertising are different, or should people posting advertising be required to follow the law?

Facebook needs to stop posting illegal ads, even if users request illegal ads. It's not my problem to decide how Facebook ensures that they obey the law -- it's their problem. Even if its really, really hard, it's still their problem. If it's impossible to achieve with technology, Facebook should leave the advertising business.

Exactly. Facebook can solve this problem, but they don't. Same as political ads. "If we don't know about it, you can't sue". Unfortunately I think governments are getting tired of that excuse.

Re: Facebook Is Letting Job Advertisers Target Only Men

#116

Post by WillPostForFood »

mcny wrote: post #113
meowface wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In classic rubber duck-debugging style, I ended up realizing that as soon as I pressed submit. In that case I suppose it's not very ethically questionable for things that are very clearly 100% (within a minuscule margin of error) men's only (prostate health, etc.) or women's only (sanitary pads). I guess the real quandary is for stuff that's male-dominated like hard, dangerous physical labor (coal mining etc.), but n…

> a recruiter can statistically prove that the most efficient use of their advertising dollars to hire for a coal mining job is by targeting only men, 1) is it sexist and/or unethical, and 2) should it be legal? I put this at the same level as only hiring women to teach elementary school. Yes, it is sexist and uneducated. No, it shouldn't be legal.

What if you spend the same amount of money but create separate ads targeted at men and women?

What if you are trying to get more female engineers at your company, and want to target women?

Re: Facebook Is Letting Job Advertisers Target Only Men

#117

Post by icahnvalyou »

pteredactyl wrote: post #96
mreome wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The issue is that under the law, you as an employer are not allowed to make a hiring related choice that in any way discriminates against a protected class (with some exceptions discussed on other comments). You might expect to only get applications from men, but legally you can not target men specifically. The inclusion of 'women and people of color strongly encouraged to apply' is actually walking a fine legal line…

Which law is that specifically? And, as a business owner, please tell me why it would not be in my best interest to hire the best person for the job?

As with most laws, because the government will send some lawyer to hurt you if you don't.

Re: Facebook Is Letting Job Advertisers Target Only Men

#118

Post by gehwartzen »

For those interested here is a link to The Code of Federal Regulations: Title 29 (Labor): Part 1604 “Guidelines On Discrimination Because of Sex” which describes the relevant legal requirements/interpretations pertaining to employer sex discrimination.

https://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/CFR-2011-title29-vol4/xml/CFR-...

Re: Facebook Is Letting Job Advertisers Target Only Men

#119

Post by cm2187 »

bsder wrote: post #59
cm2187 wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Depends on the job. You won’t send a female cleaner in a male locker room. Also some recruiter are explicitely trying to correct a gender imbalance and are therefore actively seeking female candidates. Does that become unethical to advertise to women?

> Depends on the job. You won’t send a female cleaner in a male locker room. Um, the cleaner is usually coming in when the locker room is empty so sex doesn't matter.

Not at my gym.

Re: Facebook Is Letting Job Advertisers Target Only Men

#120

Post by bduerst »

eappleby wrote: post #82
obmelvin wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you were to only recruit from single gender schools then I personally would have an issue with it, same as this issue. However, if you are recruiting from many universities and some happen to be single gender, that is not discriminating.

What if the companies that were placing job ads on Facebook were also placing job ads on other platforms that weren't targeted to men only? Playing devils advocate here...

I think the previous question was about the institution. In this case, Facebook has people of all genders, not just one.

It only be an apt analogy to the Universities if Facebook were some single-gender social network. Or if an all-gender University let you only recruit one gender.

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