Asian-American Students Suing Harvard Over Admissions Win Justice Dept. Support • Hacker News Board

Re: Asian-American Students Suing Harvard Over Admissions Win Justice Dept. Support

#111

Post by jessaustin » Thu, Aug 30, 2018, 5:39 PM UTC

castlecrasher2 wrote: post #105

sanitizer wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even so, I want this to be a country where single parents can thrive and get the help they need. I think all children are entitled to health care, food, and school. I would add shelter, but that is a tougher nut to crack, and that free food (at school) and free health care for kids are themselves low-hanging fruits when it comes to supporting the children and making an environment where they can thrive.

> Even so, I want this to be a country where single parents can thrive and get the help they need. Why do you think single parenthood is rising, or that adoption opportunities are drying up? I doubt there has been a time in the history of mankind that is more accepting of single parenthood, or where it's been more possible to raise a child on your own. Women by and large aren't financially obligated to give up their…

One suspects that the rise of single parenthood has more to do with the accommodations society is making for single parents (and their lawyers) than with those it makes for their children...

Re: Asian-American Students Suing Harvard Over Admissions Win Justice Dept. Support

#112

Post by 40acres » Thu, Aug 30, 2018, 5:39 PM UTC

nostrademons wrote: post #47

40acres wrote: post #7

This argument, while important, is the low hanging fruit of the affirmative action debate in my opinion. We would not need affirmative action if legacy based admissions wasn't so prevalent in top schools. We would not need affirmative action if every school district in America recieved proper funding to support teachers and enable smaller class sizes, test prep for students to take specialized exams, and after school…

"The best elementary schools in the nation are driven by property taxes, how many people do you know bought their house because of the school district?" Sometimes I wonder how much of this is everyone mistaking causation vs. correlation. School districts with high property taxes tend to have a number of other features in common, like: stable 2-parent households; high incomes; ability to afford private tutors and enri…

I don't think solving the funding issue would directly solve the performance issue because this is a problem with multiple variables like you have mentioned.

When we talk about stable 2 parent households we need to consider the fact that many black and Hispanic families are torn apart due to the higher incarceration rates for black and Hispanics when compared to whites, even for doing the same crime. When you split a family apart, even for a few years, and especially during the formative years of a child's life this will have a detrimental impact on their lives.

High income and the ability to afford tutors is also affected by not only education (as college educated workers earn more) but again by incarnation: if your husband is in jail you've lost his income, how can you afford a tutor? Especially if you don't have a great job due to your own struggles.

Even when looking at health there are discrepancies among the races that is affected by institutional racism: look at Flint, MI. Those kids are not going to perform as well as their peers down the road no matter what. Minority neighborhoods are also flooded with fast food chains because these corporations have made it clear that they are targeting these populations.

There are so many factors that we as Americans need to deal with, it's like placing whack a mole or untangling yarn that has been woven for hundreds of years. Almost every aspect of our day to day lives are affected by the policies of our past. We need to study them deeply and figure out a plan of action or we will continue to plug our fingers into the hole until another one springs up.

Re: Asian-American Students Suing Harvard Over Admissions Win Justice Dept. Support

#113

Post by themgt » Thu, Aug 30, 2018, 5:40 PM UTC

40acres wrote: post #95

educationdata wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your assumption is wrong. Even if there is no legacy based admissions, even if every school district in America received proper funding for everything, Black students will still have significantly low educational attainment and achievement. It is because the extremely high percentage of Black kids living under single parenthood family [1], and there is no educational / societal intervention can reverse its impact on…

Great point and I'm glad you brought this up. Like I mentioned, America has many gaping wounds which I believe can be traced back to institutional racism. When talking about the prevalence of black kids raised under single family homes we have to take into account why these kids may be raised that way. Is it a character flaw of black families? I don't think so. I'm black and familial ties run DEEP in almost every fam…

This article/issue is about non-white applicants (Asian Americans) who are being discriminated against in the admissions process. And not just at Harvard but other elite schools, med schools, etc.

It's bizarre how many comments here are focusing on traditional white vs. black issues when this is entirely about a non-white group who is being discriminated against under affirmative action because their superior test scores would otherwise leave them hugely overrepresented vs. other groups.

Are we supposed to trace back how Asian overperformance is due to a history of institutional racism against whites in the USA? Or is the fact of a non-white group outperforming whites and then being discriminated against so counter to the narrative people want about race and affirmative action that they just go back to talking about Jim Crow? What are these Asian applicants supposed to do, just accept that they are held to higher standards than any other group? If Asians would just stop doing so well on the SAT we wouldn't have to discriminate against them ...

Asian incarceration rates are also lower than that of whites, another fact difficult to explain through the prism of institutional white supremacy.

Re: Asian-American Students Suing Harvard Over Admissions Win Justice Dept. Support

#114

Post by stevenwoo » Thu, Aug 30, 2018, 5:43 PM UTC

40acres wrote: post #36

patrickg_zill wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you talking about "equality of opportunity" or "equality of outcome"?

Opportunity. Affirmative Action is a band aid on one of many gaping wounds in America caused by discrimatory policies. White flight, block busting and redlining all contribute to the current state of affairs in which Affirmative Action seems like a decent solution. The real solution however will require full scale reform. Have you ever seen video of a school board meeting where desegregation bussing was on the agenda…

You may be aware of it, but there is a proposed solution that works on the problem on both ends, the admission process and the local school districts, and is not racially based (except for the deep historical roots of class/income inequality in the USA.)

https://www.theatlantic.com/education/archive/2018/05/an-unu...

Re: Asian-American Students Suing Harvard Over Admissions Win Justice Dept. Support

#115

Post by arif_sohaib » Thu, Aug 30, 2018, 5:45 PM UTC

malcolmgreaves wrote: post #46

pastor_elm wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Disappointed in what the ACLU has become. I don't think their fundamental intentions are off, but in order to raise money in an anti-Trump era, they've definitely veered off course in practice. EDIT: For those downvoting me, you should give this a listen: https://www.nytimes.com/2018/07/30/podcasts/the-daily/aclu-n...

Racsim is the systematic oppression of people. It's carried out in instutions, cultural, and processes: individual people do not perform racsim. (Individuals can discriminate.) Racism depends on country / region. In the US, racism exits against black and brown people. It is a system set up for the benefit of white people. Your confusion comes from falsely equating racial discrimination and racism.

Brown guy in the US here. And Muslim and Pakistani. What kind of racism do you think I face? I felt more discrimination in Pakistan for being short and quiet and not having a deep voice than I ever did in the US for being brown, Muslim and Pakistani. I have been sent through the express lane many times at airport check-in, I have prayed openly(in a corner) at 2 airports, I have worked with a Christian Republican who dropped me off at a mosque on my request and reminded me of prayer times.

I know this is anecdotal but I firmly believe the issue is pure economics + upgringing. I happen to be a moderately rich Pakistani Muslim from a happy and close-knit family, a white person with less income and/or bad family life will have it much harder in the US than I do and thanks to affarmative action, he will have a much harder time getting into an ivy league school than any member of my family or any rich/happy Black or Hispanic family.

Re: Asian-American Students Suing Harvard Over Admissions Win Justice Dept. Support

#116

Post by BadassFractal » Thu, Aug 30, 2018, 5:47 PM UTC

arif_sohaib wrote: post #115

malcolmgreaves wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Racsim is the systematic oppression of people. It's carried out in instutions, cultural, and processes: individual people do not perform racsim. (Individuals can discriminate.) Racism depends on country / region. In the US, racism exits against black and brown people. It is a system set up for the benefit of white people. Your confusion comes from falsely equating racial discrimination and racism.

Brown guy in the US here. And Muslim and Pakistani. What kind of racism do you think I face? I felt more discrimination in Pakistan for being short and quiet and not having a deep voice than I ever did in the US for being brown, Muslim and Pakistani. I have been sent through the express lane many times at airport check-in, I have prayed openly(in a corner) at 2 airports, I have worked with a Christian Republican who…

Like you said, "brown guys" seem do be doing alright: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ethnic_groups_in_the_U...

Re: Asian-American Students Suing Harvard Over Admissions Win Justice Dept. Support

#117

Post by waterhouse » Thu, Aug 30, 2018, 5:48 PM UTC

40acres wrote: post #112

nostrademons wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"The best elementary schools in the nation are driven by property taxes, how many people do you know bought their house because of the school district?" Sometimes I wonder how much of this is everyone mistaking causation vs. correlation. School districts with high property taxes tend to have a number of other features in common, like: stable 2-parent households; high incomes; ability to afford private tutors and enri…

I don't think solving the funding issue would directly solve the performance issue because this is a problem with multiple variables like you have mentioned. When we talk about stable 2 parent households we need to consider the fact that many black and Hispanic families are torn apart due to the higher incarceration rates for black and Hispanics when compared to whites, even for doing the same crime. When you split a…

> When we talk about stable 2 parent households we need to consider the fact that many black and Hispanic families are torn apart

Given that these things are happening, do you think it's good for colleges to accept less-prepared students whom life or people have mistreated over better-prepared students whom life has treated well? (Because that seems to be the position of affirmative action advocates.)

Re: Asian-American Students Suing Harvard Over Admissions Win Justice Dept. Support

#118

Post by seatdrummer » Thu, Aug 30, 2018, 5:48 PM UTC

40acres wrote: post #7

This argument, while important, is the low hanging fruit of the affirmative action debate in my opinion. We would not need affirmative action if legacy based admissions wasn't so prevalent in top schools. We would not need affirmative action if every school district in America recieved proper funding to support teachers and enable smaller class sizes, test prep for students to take specialized exams, and after school…

Legacy admissions is a separate issue which basically everybody would be in favor of removing because such a tiny tiny minority of kids actually get that benefit.

After that only reasons you've listed for affirmative action have to do with economics. Why not just be race agnostic and then factor in income? As time passes races will fall in and out of the income brackets and nobody can argue its unfair.

Re: Asian-American Students Suing Harvard Over Admissions Win Justice Dept. Support

#119

Post by 40acres » Thu, Aug 30, 2018, 5:49 PM UTC

themgt wrote: post #113

40acres wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Great point and I'm glad you brought this up. Like I mentioned, America has many gaping wounds which I believe can be traced back to institutional racism. When talking about the prevalence of black kids raised under single family homes we have to take into account why these kids may be raised that way. Is it a character flaw of black families? I don't think so. I'm black and familial ties run DEEP in almost every fam…

This article/issue is about non-white applicants (Asian Americans) who are being discriminated against in the admissions process. And not just at Harvard but other elite schools, med schools, etc. It's bizarre how many comments here are focusing on traditional white vs. black issues when this is entirely about a non-white group who is being discriminated against under affirmative action because their superior test sc…

Solid point, I really feel for Asian kids and parents who are being discriminated against. The reason why these discussions usually end up in a discussion of black v. white is because (in my opinion) that "struggle" affects every aspect of American life, whether or not you are aware of it or have any influence.

Colleges like Harvard and companies like Google want a more diverse population and are willing to shape policy based on that; if America was truly a place of equal opportunity they would not need to bend their policies to reach out to marginalized groups at the expense of others who should qualify based on merit. If we want to remove the need for Affirmative Action we need to solve the underlying issues which made it seem so viable in the first place.

Re: Asian-American Students Suing Harvard Over Admissions Win Justice Dept. Support

#120

Post by bobmarley1 » Thu, Aug 30, 2018, 5:50 PM UTC

_m96l wrote: post #110

The key facts of this story is that Harvard has been discriminating against Asian-Americans based on race, which is illegal in the US. Harvard knows they've been acting unlawfully, which is why they desperately try to resort to evasive tactics, such as claiming their admission process is a "trade secret" and should never be discussed in court: https://www.marketwatch.com/story/harvard-university-is-figh... The DoJ is…

It's actually not at all clear if it's legal hence the court battle. In fact AA is literally legalized discrimination that benefits Minorities so you really don't know what you are talking about.