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John McCain has died

nytimes.com

111–120 of 245 posts

Re: John McCain has died

#112

America lost a publicly principled man today. RIP sir. As a related meta-analysis of the response to his passing, i am surprised how many comments here include disclaimers to the appreciation offered. "I didn't agree with him but...". Have we become this partisan as a people? Our semi-anonymous respects for the passing of a prominent figure must be disclaimer-ed with political editorials. A worrying trend.

> Have we become this partisan as a people?

Yes. Will Wheaton apologized for his privilege as an introduction to his public confession of his mental health issues. The post was on the front page here. I typically get disapproval unless I mention I did not vote for Trump when discussing anything political these days.

Given a lack of context, people jump to a lot of conclusions these days. So people feel required to volunteer context. It might stop if we learn to give each other the benefit of the doubt.

But that requires trust.

Re: John McCain has died

#113
post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is complete conjecture, so grain of salt and all that, but I'm not so sure it says what you think it does about his judgement. He had run before. Honest campaigns, little to no mud slinging, not what you typically see from politicians. He lost. He gave in to the RNC advisors and others around him that time around. Palin obviously turned out to be awful (maybe not strong enough a word) and he didn't care for her…

McCain presidential run is a perfect display of one of the weaknesses of the primary system. To win as Republican in the primary you have to appeal to the worse stereotypes of the Republican Party - racist, nationalist, “Christian right” etc. Neither McCain nor Romney ever governed to the far right but they had to pretend like they were to appeal to primary voters. I’m in no way giving Democrats a pass, they have to…

I'm not really sure that's a weakness. Sure, you can point to the things that are used which are harmful or hateful, but this is how a party decides it's policy. The idea is that the platform you pick informs the government you create, yes? Sure, you can argue about whether it's "listening" or "pandering," but the whole foundation of representative government is that the officials elected represent the policies the population wants. Then when they're in office, they're forced to compromise with members of other parties representing other peoples. The fact that immutable obstructionism is the political tactic of the day doesn't mean that the core idea is bad.

"People are idiots" is a known fault with democracies, but it's a known fault with all governments or, indeed, all human endeavors.

Re: John McCain has died

#114
post #90

John McCain dedicated his entire adult life to serving America with dignity, courage and honor. We need more McCains in the world, not fewer. RIP.

I can honestly say as someone who can’t support a Republican President because he would give too much power to southern regressionist Republicans and while I might have disagreed with a lot of their policies, I never saw any of the Republican Presidents or nominees as people who I didn’t think did or would have represented the country well. Until 2016... But they all had to veer to the right a little more than I thou…

McCain was treated terribly by his own party in the 2000 primary.

Re: John McCain has died

#115
post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

McCain might have beaten Hillary, but when Obama locked up the drawn out Democratic nomination, the race was over for the reasons you described.

Also making the ridiculous decision (which says a lot about his judgement) to run with Sarah Palin as his VP.

Honestly, I don't think she was a bad choice. I know this sounds ridiculous in hindsight.

At the time, she was one of the most popular governors in the US. She was young (44), female and in charge of the largest state in the country by landmass. She was a rising star in the Republican party and on the short list for the next opening for the US Senate.

She was also a Westerner like McCain, at a time where the Republican party wanted to make sure it didn't become the party of just the Southern US and voters were sick and tired of the Bush administration and the career Republicans running the place.

McCain was losing, and losing momentum. People were scared, companies were going bankrupt, and the stock market crash was imminent.

His top choice was Lieberman, but he couldn't choose him. Republicans would hate to see one of the Senate's most senior Democrats (who was pro-choice) as VP. Many Democrats really disliked him too for his support for the Iraq War and opposition to Obama. He lost his primary seat in 2006 and ran as an Independent against the Democrat, basically winning by consolidating the Connecticut Republican vote.

The others on the short list were Governor Pawlenty (MN), Governor Jindal (LA), Governor Romney (MA) and Former Governor Ridge (PA). All governors. Pawlenty and Romney were the safe choices, but I don't think they would've been able to turn the tide and shift attention away from the Obama campaign.

I was a strong supporter of Obama, and I remember getting worried when McCain chose her. I was really disappointed to hear her first speech - it was patronizing and vindictive, but red meat to the Republican base. I think she basically was told what she needed to do -- i.e. serve as the attack dog and rile up the Republican base and fuel get out the vote efforts in those last two months. And she did a pretty good job at it. She did fine in the VP debate, though Biden did as well, and she looked very comfortable on the national stage.

I think the Democrats ran a great campaign, and were able to define her as a political neophyte that was unqualified to serve as President. I also think that McCain personally wanted to run an ethical campaign focusing on the issues, and her full embrace of the red meat partisan issues undermined his campaign. But if he had chosen someone else I don't think there would've been a different outcome. Republican strategists would still have come up with 'death panels' and trying to tie Obama to Bill Ayers and all that other conspiratorial nonsense, it just would've been a different politician saying it.

Re: John McCain has died

#116
post #81

America lost a publicly principled man today. RIP sir. As a related meta-analysis of the response to his passing, i am surprised how many comments here include disclaimers to the appreciation offered. "I didn't agree with him but...". Have we become this partisan as a people? Our semi-anonymous respects for the passing of a prominent figure must be disclaimer-ed with political editorials. A worrying trend.

As someone who does agree with a lot of positions McCain represented, I can't blame anyone who feels the need to distance themselves from his political party before paying respects. Some of our key political disputes today aren't good-faith disagreements about policy. They're attacks on peoples' families and livelihoods. And when you attack people personally like that, decency is something that goes out the window: h…

Political disputes these days are about identity, not ideas, values, or policy. They're not even about politics, really, since politics means compromise, changing minds, and growing support. Everything these days is about discouraging opposition, enraging base coalitions, and running off everyone in the middle. It's about forming tribes and battling.

That's no way to build a healthy society. It scares me more than any given issue of the day. I have kids growing up in this world.

Re: John McCain has died

#117
post #103

"McCain graduated from the United States Naval Academy in 1958 and followed his father and grandfather—both four-star admirals—into the U.S. Navy. He became a naval aviator and flew ground-attack aircraft from aircraft carriers. During the Vietnam War, he was almost killed in the 1967 USS Forrestal fire. While McCain was on a bombing mission over Hanoi in October 1967, he was shot down, seriously injured, and capture…

Anyone can fight in a war or even be a senator. Very few people have the capability to develop software. You should be proud of your accomplishments. Building software is a much bigger accomplishment than winning a popularity contest or killing people because others order you to.

You're missing the obvious.

Very few people would be capable of enduring torture across nearly six years, while letting numerous other prisoners go free in their stead.

McCain signed up to the military willingly. He comes from a family line of professional soldiers. Who knows how many of those others he put before himself were forcibly drafted into it, plausibly many of them (late 1967 was near peak US troop levels, a lot of soldiers taken POW at that time forward would have been drafted; in 1968 300k were drafted, 1.7m total across the war (38% of which served in Vietnam)).

Personally I'd never agree with the US involvement in the Vietnam civil war. McCain is a hero for his actions in captivity, not for his war fighting.

Re: John McCain has died

#118

America lost a publicly principled man today. RIP sir. As a related meta-analysis of the response to his passing, i am surprised how many comments here include disclaimers to the appreciation offered. "I didn't agree with him but...". Have we become this partisan as a people? Our semi-anonymous respects for the passing of a prominent figure must be disclaimer-ed with political editorials. A worrying trend.

It's easy to say nice things about members of your own tribe. It's easy to overlook the faults of someone on your side. "I didn't agree with him but..." just emphasises the sincerity of your admiration. Good opponents are the foundation of a strong democracy. You're in real trouble when you honestly struggle to say anything nice about your opponents, or you're too tied up in tribalism to entertain the possibility tha…

Good ideas and rational discussion is the basis if a strong democracy. Opposition is a means to an end. Just like the Socratic method is a way to encourage understanding.

So I agree with you that people should be civil, but the premise of respecting the other still hinges on identifing others.

Re: John McCain has died

#119
post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I once described John McCain as an unprincipled torture apologist for his political positions during the Bush administration. I think I was probably mistaken, and I apologize to his ghost.

Why, I seem to remember him as one of the lone voices that spoke against torture. A point of view that came from his time as a POW.

From the article:

"As a torture victim, Mr. McCain was sensitive to the detention and interrogation of detainees in the fight against terrorism. In 2005 the Senate passed his bill to bar inhumane treatment of prisoners, including those at Guantánamo Bay, Cuba, by limiting military practices to those permitted by the United States Army Field Manual on Interrogation. His 2008 bill to ban waterboarding as torture was adopted, but vetoed by President Bush."

Re: John McCain has died

#120
post #83
post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I remember reading that McCain picked Palin over his handlers’ strong objections. Was it the other way around?

As far as I'm aware, he wanted Lieberman and caved to more conservative members of his party. Wikipedia seems to agree[1]. It does also say that he selected Palin because she appeared to be someone who would bolster his "maverick" image. He later regretted the choice. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vice_presidential_candidacy_of...

A McCain/Lieberman ticket would have been a dream.
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