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When Security Compromises Security – The Caesars/Defcon debacle

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Re: When Security Compromises Security – The Caesars/Defcon debacle

#111

Post by jsjohnst »

ectospheno wrote: post #100
jsjohnst wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Citation needed (I was stating my opinion, you are the one claiming I am factually wrong and not providing any proof, further a quick google search proves I was correct in my statement too based on reputable legal sites)

Sure. As I mentioned this varies by state. I'm not going to google all 50 states for you despite your apparent need for me to. The original article was concerning Nevada I believe. Here is a link for Nevada. http://www.loving.lawyer/blog/2016/8/23/think-twice-before-k... Again. This varies quite a bit by state.

As I suspected and why I said citation needed, you went on an irrelevant tangent into tenancy law. How does that link negate anything I said? If I had said “I could force you to leave my home immediately”, yes, that link would sorta apply, but I didn’t (evicting you via the courts is “force you to leave”). The conversation is specifically around your right to privacy when staying at property you don’t own. Yes, fourth amendment would prevent the property owner from letting police in under many (but not all) circumstances, but there is virtually no law preventing them from “violating your privacy” entering at their will. The laws that do apply generally only dictate notice periods, and even in those cases they have exceptions for emergencies, which ensuring security when they feel there is a credible risk qualifies.

Again, shady as hell ethically what they did and how they did it, but still very legal.

Re: When Security Compromises Security – The Caesars/Defcon debacle

#112

Post by observer12 »

fatbird wrote: post #104
dpeck wrote: post #84

Katie Moussouris ( https://twitter.com/k8em0 ) is, unsurprisingly, spot on with the problems from her experience. Being able to verify that people trying to get into your room are indeed hotel security is a perfectly valid request. Trusting an ID badge is always laughable, but even more so in an environment like Defcon. While the privacy concerns aren't invalid, the safety issue posed by this policy are much more con…

At a hotel I stayed at in Hinton, Alberta (pop. 15,000, which had a bad drug epidemic at the time), the laminated hotel security card on the bed specifically said that, at nighttime, if someone knocks on the door claiming to be from the hotel, first call the front desk to verify that a houseman had actually been sent. This is a solved problem.

The problem with what happened at Defcon is some of the security were refusing to be verified or show IDs.

Re: When Security Compromises Security – The Caesars/Defcon debacle

#113

Post by jstarfish »

rustcharm wrote: post #93

I was at DEFCON. I stayed at Caesars. I had a lot of odd stuff in my room. I had no problems. Security never entered my room, nor did they want to. Why? Because I did the simplest thing. I didn't keep the DND sign on the door so I had normal maid service. I like fresh towels and made beds. If you leave your DND up, security will come to your room once a day and take a quick visual inspection. Yes, we all know this is…

> For the rest of us, it's a nice convention where we can talk to real engineers and security researchers about problems that affect us

Good for you. I'm glad you got a chance to talk to real engineers and security researchers about problems that affect you. I hope you feel more secure as a result.

There are a number of other attendees who would also like to discuss the security problems that affect them, such as the notion that putting up a DnD sign on your hotel door is an implicit expectation that random men will corner you in your room. If these visitors aren't who they say they are, the only way out is through them. It being a convention of professional hackers, the fact that the only thing between you and an intruder is an electronic lock does not bestow much confidence in one's security.

Is it ok with you if we discuss this for a bit? Hopefully it doesn't get in the way of the important engineering and security research weighing on your mind.

Re: When Security Compromises Security – The Caesars/Defcon debacle

#114

Post by rustcharm »

jstarfish wrote: post #113
rustcharm wrote: post #93

I was at DEFCON. I stayed at Caesars. I had a lot of odd stuff in my room. I had no problems. Security never entered my room, nor did they want to. Why? Because I did the simplest thing. I didn't keep the DND sign on the door so I had normal maid service. I like fresh towels and made beds. If you leave your DND up, security will come to your room once a day and take a quick visual inspection. Yes, we all know this is…

> For the rest of us, it's a nice convention where we can talk to real engineers and security researchers about problems that affect us Good for you. I'm glad you got a chance to talk to real engineers and security researchers about problems that affect you. I hope you feel more secure as a result. There are a number of other attendees who would also like to discuss the security problems that affect them, such as the…

I had the DND sign up when I was in the room. But when I left, I took it down so the room could be cleaned. Nobody other than the cleaning staff came in my room and they did a good job (I have video!) I was not visited by security. I had tools including soldering irons and 2-way radios in my room.

If you don't allow the cleaning staff in the room at least once a day, someone from Security will check the room.

Don't create drama when it's not needed. Worry about important things.

Re: When Security Compromises Security – The Caesars/Defcon debacle

#115

Post by [deleted] »

teddyh wrote: post #106
dsfyu404ed wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because it's defcon, not blackhat. Defcon is the Saturday before graduation at a frat house. Blackhat is a the 4th of July at a country club.

Could someone translate that from American to European for us non-US residents, please?

[deleted]

Re: When Security Compromises Security – The Caesars/Defcon debacle

#116

Post by snarfy »

dogismycopilot wrote: post #86
snarfy wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The last time I went to Defcon, someone drove the security golf cart into the pool. Others were flushing bags of concrete down the toilet. There's damage, and then there is Defcon.

When was the last time that you went to DEFCON?

over a decade ago :(

Re: When Security Compromises Security – The Caesars/Defcon debacle

#117

Post by DEADBEEFC0FFEE »

observer12 wrote: post #112
fatbird wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At a hotel I stayed at in Hinton, Alberta (pop. 15,000, which had a bad drug epidemic at the time), the laminated hotel security card on the bed specifically said that, at nighttime, if someone knocks on the door claiming to be from the hotel, first call the front desk to verify that a houseman had actually been sent. This is a solved problem.

The problem with what happened at Defcon is some of the security were refusing to be verified or show IDs.

Surely if you think your room is being invaded, you call the actual police. Security guards are there to protect property.

Re: When Security Compromises Security – The Caesars/Defcon debacle

#118

Post by DEADBEEFC0FFEE »

secabeen wrote: post #105
tibbon wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Everything on the strip is jacked up beyond anything I've ever seen in Tokyo or NYC. Pizza delivery might work, but otherwise... literally everything on the strip is jacked. I can find $1 slice pizza in Manhattan. Less-good version in Vegas? $6.

Delivery food is a great way to save money, but they can't deliver to your hotel room. You have to meet them at the entrance to the hotel.

That seems pretty ok.

Re: When Security Compromises Security – The Caesars/Defcon debacle

#119

Post by Kalium »

jimnotgym wrote: post #10

I am not part of the DEFCON community, but every year I hear about warrantless searches, equipment seized art the border and hacker arrests. I wonder why anyone, not least security researchers, would take the risk of going there. Just so as you guys know, we have conference facilities in Europe...

You're absolutely right! Europe has conference facilities!

Of course, most places in Europe also have much stricter laws on guns. Many places aren't quite into the whole "free speech" thing in the way Americans are. These things are pretty important to a large number of attendees.

DEFCON is probably best regarded as a regional North American hacker con that reflects the culture and history of North American hackers. You cannot transplant DEFCON and preserve its cultural history. This is an issue of some concern, as it's the people and culture that matter the most at DEFCON rather than the conference that someone who has never attended might reasonably assume. After all, it's just a conference, right?

Continental Europe already has CCC. DEFCON's roots and history tie is pretty firmly to Vegas.

Re: When Security Compromises Security – The Caesars/Defcon debacle

#120

Post by TheCoelacanth »

DEADBEEFC0FFEE wrote: post #117
observer12 wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem with what happened at Defcon is some of the security were refusing to be verified or show IDs.

Surely if you think your room is being invaded, you call the actual police. Security guards are there to protect property.

If you feel the need to call the cops because of interactions with hotel security, the hotel has fucked up in a major way. The hotel should be taking reasonable steps to make their guests feel safe, and having security guards provide verification of their identity when requested is something that they absolutely need to be doing.
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