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America is moving toward becoming a better version of itself

theatlantic.com

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Re: America is moving toward becoming a better version of itself

#111

Post by okmokmz »

collyw wrote: post #81
mattzito wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you suggesting that communities can stay frozen in time, unchanging forever? Even the Amish have adopted cell phones and automobiles, and the Satmars in NYC are huge WhatsApp users. Any community that thinks they can remain totally insular is both fooling itself and doomed to failure.

Mobile phones don't define a culture. Almost every culture on the planet has adopted them now. Attitudes and shared behaviors do.

Mobile phones themselves do not define a culture, but the Amish beginning to use them seems to be a pretty clear shift in their attitude and behaviors in relation to technology

Re: America is moving toward becoming a better version of itself

#112

Post by ModernMech »

assblaster wrote: post #105
ModernMech wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When people talk about religious tolerance in the US as an issue, they usually are referring to letting white evangelicals get their way politically and culturally. For instance, I know many people who feel their religious liberty was infringed when gay marriage was legalized, but also voted for a guy who called for the "complete and total shutdown of Muslims entering the US". It's not about religious liberty as a co…

In what way does "White" play into this discussion? Islam, whether practiced by whites, blacks, Hispanics, Pacific Islanders, is clear in its denouncement of homosexuals as people. Islam doesn't even separate the act from the person, the person must be killed as prescribed in the Quran.

White evangelicals are a voting bloc in the US with outsize influence on the Republican agenda.

Re: America is moving toward becoming a better version of itself

#113

Post by throwaway1894 »

kadenshep wrote: post #103
throwaway1894 wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Definition of injustice are pretty broad and situational, wouldn't you agree? And besides, breaking down the actual phrase, it means to act within the "correctness" of the political climate du jour. Depending on the power brokers you subscribe to, that could mean a variety of things. Not aimed at you, but the overblown sense of agency and importance that people give their own definitions seems to be part of the probl…

>Depending on the power brokers you subscribe to, that could mean a variety of things. It's usage and definition is well understood when used by members of a certain political faction in the U.S. It's not a mystery. Exact same thing when these specific people use "SJW" as a pejorative.

If someone identified as a "SJW" is causing friction between groups by trying to implement their beliefs, it seems only natural the group feeling aggressed against would use that term pejoratively. What makes either side's beliefs 'correct' and above reproach?

Re: America is moving toward becoming a better version of itself

#114

Post by bluthru »

stordoff wrote: post #86
bluthru wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Japan - and many (most?) other countries - don't share the contingencies of America's founding. I'm not sure you want to use America's founding as an argument: https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DUhBdicX0AAGNZ5.jpg >If I emigrate to Finland do I become, and am I seen by Fins as, Finnish? Not really. People want to destroy this notion. It has already taken place for the British. https://youtu.be/flRELYUqmUE?t=3m55s >civiliz…

> People want to destroy this notion. It has already taken place for the British. Brit here. What are you even talking about?

The double standard is demonstrated in the video.

Re: America is moving toward becoming a better version of itself

#115

Post by mantas »

okmokmz wrote: post #110
mantas wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Immigrants do put pressure on housing and health services though. As well as directly causing job losses by dumping wages. Of course, a magical policy may have stopped those issues. But taking in a lot of immigrants and not changing policies accordingly is what causes havoc.

How much pressure does immigration put on housing? According to this article the US has 18.9 million vacant homes. Even if every homeless person and illegal immigrant in the United States received a home there would still be a surplus https://www.huffingtonpost.com/richard-skip-bronson/post_733...

OP was talking about UK. Which, in immigrant context, is mostly London. Which is truly sad housing situation.

Talking your link, the problem is most of the vacant homes are where people don't want to live. You'd have 3.5mio people without incomes to maintain their housing.

Why Silicon Valley has housing crisis if there're 18.9mio vacant houses? :)

Re: America is moving toward becoming a better version of itself

#116

Post by pknight »

bluthru wrote: post #83
pknight wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

These are all modern economies, most of which operate immigration-friendly regimes. Sweden, Netherlands, Switzerland, Iceland, Denmark, Norway and Finland are all signed up to freedom of movement, which doesn't discriminate on the basis of religion, ethnicity or place of birth, provided you are a citizen in the EEA or Switzerland, or if you are married to such a citizen. Anyway, the point is not that diversity cultiv…

>These are all modern economies They aren't the only modern economies. Demographics plays a role. >most of which operate immigration-friendly regimes Recent policy and current demographics are two different things. These are still homogenous countries for the most part, especially Iceland which is exceedingly safe. Where demographics have shifted drastically away from the native population, the quality of life has re…

I'm not advancing the claim that high levels of diversity bring about happiness, I'm scrutinizing the belief that populations are happier because they get to be homogeneous in composition. It's been my observation that the people who push back against the idea of diversity the most tend to be quite miserable even when living in homogeneous communities.

Re: America is moving toward becoming a better version of itself

#117

Post by SlapHappy »

specialist wrote: post #91
SlapHappy wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This isn't about whether you agree or disagree with KDW. It's about the cowardly smearing he endured and the fact that Jeff Goldberg, the so called "editor-in-chief" of The Atlantic, is not really the editor-in-chief at all, his staffers and the Twitter mob are. People are forgetting that KDW did NOT apply to work at The Atlantic, he did NOT actively set about getting a job there, he was contacted and recruited by Th…

Then stop reading The Atlantic. Voila, problem solved. Unless you’re running low and need a new source to feed your outrage addiction. Update: What was your response to MSNBC booting Sam Seder over his Polanski tweet (tasteless joke)? Sorry, I don’t do corporate media, took me a while to remember enough details to google this example. I’m sure there’s acres of examples. From my time, it was Fox News shutting down the…

Again, you missed the point. It isn't about outrage or my stance on abortion (I'm pro-choice). It's that The Atlantic caved into the Twitter mob, and cowardly backtracked even though KDW's views were public.

The firing of Sam Seder was absurd and wrong, but I don't see any parallels with the KDW fiasco. I'm not interested in firing people over this or that Tweet or "edgy" political view. It's the same reason why I'm not calling for the firing of the Fresno State professor whose been in the news lately.

Re: America is moving toward becoming a better version of itself

#118

Post by specialist »

SlapHappy wrote: post #117
specialist wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Then stop reading The Atlantic. Voila, problem solved. Unless you’re running low and need a new source to feed your outrage addiction. Update: What was your response to MSNBC booting Sam Seder over his Polanski tweet (tasteless joke)? Sorry, I don’t do corporate media, took me a while to remember enough details to google this example. I’m sure there’s acres of examples. From my time, it was Fox News shutting down the…

Again, you missed the point. It isn't about outrage or my stance on abortion (I'm pro-choice). It's that The Atlantic caved into the Twitter mob, and cowardly backtracked even though KDW's views were public. The firing of Sam Seder was absurd and wrong, but I don't see any parallels with the KDW fiasco. I'm not interested in firing people over this or that Tweet or "edgy" political view. It's the same reason why I'm…

Ok. I reread your first reply. I don’t think you’re being cynical enough.

I believe, but could never prove, that Seder and KDW and the like were fired because they fell out of favor with their pay masters, and the faux outrage is the public justification.

Like you said, there were no revelations. Ellsburg explains this phenomenon in his thesis about the structure (economics) of presidential scandals. Mix-in equal measures of The 48 Laws of Power and the attention economy, and you get these silly popularity contests.

It’s kabukis all the way down.

Re: America is moving toward becoming a better version of itself

#119

Post by humanrebar »

ModernMech wrote: post #77
assblaster wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem with your statement on religious intolerance, is that wanting someone to change the fundamentals of their religion can be equated with intolerance of that religion, even having a term specific to it: Islamophobia. I think reform of Islam must involve accommodating people who are considered sinners. The problem is that communicating this critique of Islam can be considered hate speech by the tribalists.

When people talk about religious tolerance in the US as an issue, they usually are referring to letting white evangelicals get their way politically and culturally. For instance, I know many people who feel their religious liberty was infringed when gay marriage was legalized, but also voted for a guy who called for the "complete and total shutdown of Muslims entering the US". It's not about religious liberty as a co…

> When people talk about religious tolerance in the US as an issue, they usually are referring to letting white evangelicals get their way politically and culturally.

It's more that people are concerned that they will have to be closeted in polite society. I think there's anecdotal evidence to support that concern. See the recent New Yorker piece about Chic-Fil-A "infiltrating" NYC. Infiltrating it with what? Sandwiches? No, it's about the conservative Christian owners setting up shop in NYC.

It's analogous to a scare piece about Chinese investors buying up American companies or Muslims converting a church into a mosque. Nothing in the article describes is outright objectionable, other than them.

Re: America is moving toward becoming a better version of itself

#120

Post by humanrebar »

virtuexru wrote: post #57
exelius wrote: post #38

I agree with this sentiment, with some caveats. I think Americans are totally done with identity politics based on race, gender, religion, sexuality, etc. We’ve had those arguments and the battle lines were drawn, but at the end of the day we all just live our lives. There seems to have developed somewhat of a “gentleman’s agreement” in most public spaces (explicitly political forums like protests notwithstanding) al…

> I think Americans are totally done with identity politics based on race, gender, religion, sexuality, etc. As someone who's living in New York I'd have to say you couldn't be further from the truth. But then again I guess it depends what part of the country you are in.

Agreed. For example: https://www.newyorker.com/culture/annals-of-gastronomy/chick...
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