China Bans Online Bible Sales as It Tightens Religious Controls • Hacker News Board

Re: China Bans Online Bible Sales as It Tightens Religious Controls

#111

Post by harimau777 » Fri, Apr 06, 2018, 5:02 PM UTC

lurquer wrote: post #93

whatshisface wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Athiests (the community) are known for being outspoken about the damage that certian religions have caused and are causing, but they're also known for supporting the free exchange of ideas including those that they think are harmful. Atheists (the definition) aren't known for anything because atheism doesn't demand any specific behaviors.

I wonder if there have been any explicitly Athiest regimes? That is, governments based on an ideology that explicitly denies the existence of God and devalues all religions? If only we had historical examples of such regimes, perhaps we could see if they were benign or murderous. Oh what a pity we don't have such examples.

My understanding is that most Communistic regimes were explicitly Atheist. I'm not a historian so I may not have my facts completely correct, but my understanding is that: The Soviet Union more or less outlawed religion. China is officially Atheistic but tolerates certain recognized religions. My understanding is that they outlaw/suppress certain things they view as "superstition" (such as supernatural and moral aspects of Qigong) in a way that would be considered questionable in the west.

On a more positive side, I wonder if there are any of the Scandinavian countries that could be considered to more or less implement Humanism. I say that because it seems like Humanism fills a lot of the same roles for Atheists (moral system, providing hope, providing meaning etc.) that religion does for theists.

Re: China Bans Online Bible Sales as It Tightens Religious Controls

#112

Post by fspeech » Fri, Apr 06, 2018, 5:04 PM UTC

nfoz wrote: post #97

jacquesm wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They are afraid of other power blocks and that's what churches really are when you strip away the veneer. You can still see this all over Europe, Romania, Greece, Bulgaria, Poland, Germany, Ireland, England, Spain and Italy have very powerful religious entities, and in many other countries even though the religious fractions are not quite that powerful they still have lot of power to influence politics and life in ge…

It may be oversimplifying to say that they're concerned with a power block arising from Christian churches. They could be concerned with the cultural and viral ideas of the texts themselves. Religious texts beget mindsets, attitudes, ways of life. That could be the disruption to status-quo social order that they're worried about. It may be secondary for power-blocks to arise from people organizing around those uprisi…

The NYT article itself provided good context: the Bible is available at church bookstores but no longer online. They even give an estimate of how many copies have been printed.

Re: China Bans Online Bible Sales as It Tightens Religious Controls

#113

Post by tallanvor » Fri, Apr 06, 2018, 5:05 PM UTC

madengr wrote: post #45

andy_ppp wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The church has literally zero power to do anything in the UK. We live in secular societies and I cannot believe your statement is provably true. No church/religion will ever go up against the power of the Chinese state, unless God herself returns to Earth...

But don't you have government funded religious schools? As a US citizen, I find that disturbing.

And in the US a lot of places have managed to sneak in government funding of religious schools using vouchers.

Re: China Bans Online Bible Sales as It Tightens Religious Controls

#114

Post by 794CD01 » Fri, Apr 06, 2018, 5:05 PM UTC

GuiA wrote: post #28

A friend of mine has a theory that as China grows in power, it will eventually push its own alternative calendar as an ideological statement, as the calendar we currently use is based on the birth of Jesus Christ, something the Chinese government does not particularly care about.

Have you and your friend never heard of Chinese new year? China already has its own very popular calendar that predates the Gregorian.

Re: China Bans Online Bible Sales as It Tightens Religious Controls

#115

Post by badcede » Fri, Apr 06, 2018, 5:06 PM UTC

mynegation wrote: post #108

dwheeler wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Christians have been persecuted by polytheists, atheists, Muslims, and many others. Ancient Rome sent many Christians to the lions. The USSR had official state atheism, for example, and persecuted Christians. Certainly Christians have persecuted other Christians, but I think there's little evidence that Christians have been the dominant ones. Much more info is here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Christ…

Late Christopher Hitchens had a brilliant answer to the atheistic USSR persecuting Christians: Stalin was building his own cult. As an ignostic or anti-theist (depending on when you ask me) I do not want to have anything in common with the cult-building monsters of past, present or future.

That's a transparent no-true-Scotsman. If it violates the argument just redefine the terms.

Re: China Bans Online Bible Sales as It Tightens Religious Controls

#116

Post by dang » Fri, Apr 06, 2018, 5:08 PM UTC

EliRivers wrote: post #4

monochromatic wrote: post #2

That’s... just evil. Even atheists generally support people’s freedom to read and believe as they please.

"Even atheists"? Are atheists pretty evil, but not quite this evil? Are atheists well-known for being anti-freedom? Why "even atheists"?

No religious flamewars on HN, please. Upthread was teetering, but here it plummets.

Re: China Bans Online Bible Sales as It Tightens Religious Controls

#117

Post by GuiA » Fri, Apr 06, 2018, 5:11 PM UTC

794CD01 wrote: post #114

GuiA wrote: post #28

A friend of mine has a theory that as China grows in power, it will eventually push its own alternative calendar as an ideological statement, as the calendar we currently use is based on the birth of Jesus Christ, something the Chinese government does not particularly care about.

Have you and your friend never heard of Chinese new year? China already has its own very popular calendar that predates the Gregorian.

Unless you can point me to otherwise, I believe it is still the year 2018 of our lord and savior Jesus Christ as far as China is concerned in all of its international business and political dealings.

Re: China Bans Online Bible Sales as It Tightens Religious Controls

#118

Post by erric » Fri, Apr 06, 2018, 5:12 PM UTC

stuffedBelly wrote: post #109

There is going to be repercussion. The Chinese government starts to treat Christianity as a cult like Falun Gong, to which it used the same tactic. But unlike Falun Gong, which is more of a home-brew quasi religion from the 90s, Christianity and missionary activities have been intrinsically rooted in major cities like Nanjing and Shanghai, especially during the wartime. This also sends a danger sign to the Uyghur are…

What kind of repercussions?

Re: China Bans Online Bible Sales as It Tightens Religious Controls

#119

Post by factsaresacred » Fri, Apr 06, 2018, 5:14 PM UTC

jacquesm wrote: post #103

factsaresacred wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Ireland is very much a part of the UK and the church has a lot of power there. Only 27% of Irish people hold a favorable view of the Church. The population are very much cultural Christians, most recently voting in favor of gay marriage and likely to rewrite the constitution to allow for limited abortion. The power of the Church is very limited and waning. Although just a few decades ago they did have considerable…

Ireland is one of the few countries that has seen up close how even splinter groups of what is essentially the same religion can go to war with each other. Between Ian Paisley and the IRA Ireland has learned a large number of super expensive lessons many of which have their roots in the protestant and catholic movements, handily used by the English to keep everybody divided. That's a very black chapter in European hi…

> the same religion can go to war with each other.

Sure, although the Troubles were about nationalism and civil rights and not religion. Religion did delineate the two main factions but there was little in the way of theological debate. It was an ethno-nationalist conflict.

Re: China Bans Online Bible Sales as It Tightens Religious Controls

#120

Post by creep » Fri, Apr 06, 2018, 5:15 PM UTC

salimmadjd wrote: post #104

Christianity has become a political tool now. It's a bit similar to how America feared and still does not allow members of communist party to become US citizens [1]. On the power of evangelical christianity, just look at some parts of central America, where there has been a strong conversion to evangelical Christianity. So strong that, is considered one of the reasons Hounders and Guatemala voted along with Trump adm…

Christianity has always been a political tool. I'm not saying that religion in general is incorrect or that it cannot exist outside of political use in a genuine way-- only that Christianity in particular has always been used in that way.