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A radical proposal to keep your personal data safe

theguardian.com

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Re: A radical proposal to keep your personal data safe

#111

Post by tlb »

ssivark wrote: post #102
tlb wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm prepared to sacrifice many things for various principles. But I won't sacrifice access to information, which is what I find most valuable about the internet. Information is power, and if principled people sacrifice their access to information, then unprincipled people will hold more of the world's power. So the danger of encouraging principled people to opt out of parts of the internet is that they will become le…

> Information is power, and if principled people sacrifice their access to information, then unprincipled people will hold more of the world's power. What if access to information necessitates handing over information about oneself, which gives other entities power to influence one? Eg: One can browse for information, but companies will track browsing activity, and use that towards targeted persuasion.

I'm not very vulnerable to targeted persuasion (partly because I consume so much high-quality information). There are enough vulnerable people to swing close elections, but it's a small minority. I don't think the answer is for those vulnerable people to cut themselves off, though.

Re: A radical proposal to keep your personal data safe

#112

Post by zzzeek »

mgleason_3 wrote: post #107
nwah1 wrote: post #30

This seems like such a losing battle. Payments on public transit could become anonymous, but the video feeds would still be recorded, and facial recognition could be easily performed. The cat is out of the bag. Information technology makes this data accumulation inevitable. Likely even for those who walk around with a face covering all day, pay only cash, and don't use smartphones. By doing those things you actually…

Zuckerberg- is that you? Seriously, WTF!?! Not one part of that comment is true. The cat’s not out of the bag. Nothing “permanent” has happened. A law could be passed tomorrow requiring that all of our personal data be erased. You might not like it and it would put you out of business. And that part where you say “best safeguards are to create strong institutions...”. That sounds strangely like “the 4 dog defense” ar…

> A law could be passed tomorrow requiring that all of our personal data be erased.

Such a law would be politically viable in only the most enlightened of governments and societies. Which goes back to the parent's point of "strong institutions, informed citizens, stable economies, and all the usual boring social reform stuff".

Re: A radical proposal to keep your personal data safe

#113

Post by anigbrowl »

PirateBay wrote: post #104
anigbrowl wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We need a strong leader That's how you ended up with a surveillance society in the first place, silly.

And if you have a weak leader, you have companies running around doing whatever they wish (e.g. Amazon and Google now) because there is no oversight or regulations, and pitiful punishments for betraying their customers.

I think institutions are more important than leaders for sustainable social goods.

Re: A radical proposal to keep your personal data safe

#114

Post by SeanMacConMara »

dcow wrote: post #51
nwah1 wrote: post #30

This seems like such a losing battle. Payments on public transit could become anonymous, but the video feeds would still be recorded, and facial recognition could be easily performed. The cat is out of the bag. Information technology makes this data accumulation inevitable. Likely even for those who walk around with a face covering all day, pay only cash, and don't use smartphones. By doing those things you actually…

It's also interesting to look at Stallman's tone: he's defeated. "What can be done about privacy Mr Stallman?" " Society needs to care more." It's the same tone JPB had when asked about how the EFF can have an impact on younger generations who take the internet for granted. "They need to care more. And education." They're not wrong, of course. And your comment is very similar: the problem isn't the technology, it's t…

He doesn't sound defeated to me. He's repeating the same message he has for a long time now. The only practical realistic solution is at the political level. I don't recall him ever implying the tech alone was a complete solution. Votes, not Code.

Re: A radical proposal to keep your personal data safe

#115

Post by SeanMacConMara »

athenot wrote: post #73
nwah1 wrote: post #30

This seems like such a losing battle. Payments on public transit could become anonymous, but the video feeds would still be recorded, and facial recognition could be easily performed. The cat is out of the bag. Information technology makes this data accumulation inevitable. Likely even for those who walk around with a face covering all day, pay only cash, and don't use smartphones. By doing those things you actually…

Maybe the answer is to turn the dial to 11 on information sharing and require data transparency from managers/leaders/public servants who operate data accumulation outfits. Track users' location data? Then your location must be public record & realtime. Etc. At the end of the day, this is about information asymmetry. If the general public loses privacy, then so should those who benefit from that information, in order…

maybe replace "managers/leaders/public servants" with "shareholders/party donors" to really ruffle feathers

also , why settle for a level playing field ? why not high privacy for citizens and high transparency for gov/large orgs ?

Re: A radical proposal to keep your personal data safe

#116

Post by theclaw »

StavrosK wrote: post #23
AdmiralAsshat wrote: post #7

I wish we could find a way to apply the model of the vending machine to mass commerce. A vending machine doesn't make notes of who buys its products. A vending machine doesn't keep logs of its transactions or of the payment methods used. A vending machine does not make "recommendations" of what the consumer might like based on their past purchases. You give the vending machine a dollar, it gives you a soda. The trans…

You can prove that you purchased something by having a receipt. It can be as simple as a unique purchase number. If you pay by some cryptocurrency, you can even prove you own the sending address.

True but cryptocurrency is not particularly anonymous once you're buying physical goods that need to be shipped to an individual. Imagine how useful the blockchain would be to Amazon if they knew the addresses of all their customers wallets (which they would surely collect) and the addresses of all their competitors wallets. They could see where their customers shop and micro-target deals.

I like the GNU Taler model mentioned in the article where the payer decides whether they want to be identified, but the payee is always identifiable. Combine this with a crypto-signed receipt from the payee and you have a system that better respects privacy.

Re: A radical proposal to keep your personal data safe

#117

Post by theclaw »

tzs wrote: post #50
nkrisc wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the point is that a vending machine doesn't need to do all those things to fulfill its purpose. Dollar goes in, soda comes out. Yes you can make a vending machine do that, but that's not the point.

What is the purpose of the vending machine, from the consumer point of view? Is its purpose to provide an oasis of snacky goodness to those who happen to encounter it while passing through? If so, then yes, all it needs is dollar in, item out. I'd argue, though, that vending machines that are in places where they are regularly encountered by the same people over and over again, such as vending machine in office build…

You could call it the Nutrimatic. Share and enjoy!

Re: A radical proposal to keep your personal data safe

#118

Post by CaptSpify »

Too wrote: post #68
madez wrote: post #3

The article raises good points. One important aspect is missing though; the reliance on web services, SaaS, and the like. Free software is not enough. We need free software that runs locally and offline.

Apples privacy policy actually says they will always do "on device processing whenever possible" . Where the line between possible and feasible is drawn isn't really specified but If they really live up to this it is reason enough for me to only buy apple products as the other 2 options seem to have a completely different view of this.

I'd love it if this were true, but we don't really know if it is true or not, and Apple refuses to allow us to see for ourselves. I really want to like Apple, but they won't put their money where their mouth is.

Re: A radical proposal to keep your personal data safe

#119

Post by theclaw »

tlb wrote: post #111
ssivark wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Information is power, and if principled people sacrifice their access to information, then unprincipled people will hold more of the world's power. What if access to information necessitates handing over information about oneself, which gives other entities power to influence one? Eg: One can browse for information, but companies will track browsing activity, and use that towards targeted persuasion.

I'm not very vulnerable to targeted persuasion (partly because I consume so much high-quality information). There are enough vulnerable people to swing close elections, but it's a small minority. I don't think the answer is for those vulnerable people to cut themselves off, though.

How do you know this? Would you consider a system of targeted persuasion where the subject is aware they're being manipulated a successful one?

I'm being subtly guided towards products and services all the time through myriad sneaky marketing techniques I'm completely unaware of. I know enough of them to appreciate how much I don't know.

Re: A radical proposal to keep your personal data safe

#120

Post by theclaw »

f_allwein wrote: post #42
fortythirteen wrote: post #40

Expecting groups of people (tech companies or government) to purposefully do something that is disadvantageous to their bottom line, for nothing more than ideals, is a pipe dream. The real question is personal and harder to answer: "Do I really need this information technology? Is it making my quality of life any better than my ancestors?" The more I ponder this question, the more I'm convinced I could live an equall…

Well, the example given here is Transport for London, which is almost impossible to travel without using an Oyster smart card. So yes, pushing for legislation along the lines proposed in the article would make sense.

They've now introduced the ability to pay by any contactless card, not just Oyster. I think long term they will phase out Oyster. One of the benefits to them of doing so would be the fact that it's not as easy to have multiple contactless credit/debit cards as it is to have multiple Oyster cards.

To be frank, though, I'm struggling to see what the fuss is about when it comes to TfL. It's their system and they can do what the heck they want with it. As their customer I am OK with them tracking me around their property.

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