$40 road tolls offer insight into commuter psychology • Hacker News Board

Re: $40 road tolls offer insight into commuter psychology

#111

Post by eru » Thu, Dec 07, 2017, 11:20 AM UTC

maxxxxx wrote: post #44

freetime2 wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm curious how they use the money from the $40 toll. If, for example, they used the money to improve roads and other public transportation options so that everyone on average gets where they need to go faster, then that ought to make everyone happy. Or else just divide up the revenue and mail everyone in the state a check at the end of the year. That would make me less angry about the fact that other people are able…

Money is fungible. Even if the toll goes to transportation they will just cut that amount from the regular budget. Sending out a check to everybody would be fine but that ain't gonna happen...

And, alas, sending back a check to everybody would probably just drive up rents.

Re: $40 road tolls offer insight into commuter psychology

#112

Post by pwg » Thu, Dec 07, 2017, 11:22 AM UTC

AndrewKemendo wrote: post #5

I guess I'm at a loss here because I've lived in DC almost 6 years now and it never occurred to me that I-66 was HOV only during certain portions of the day. I know I am not alone in this because I see similar conversations happening elsewhere. Additionally, many comments say that single traveler HOV use is forbidden however I frequently see single drivers in the HOV lanes on 66 and elsewhere un-restricted. As a comp…

> guess I'm at a loss here because I've lived in DC almost 6 years now and it never occurred to me that I-66 was HOV only during certain portions of the day.

Here is a photo of one of the HOV restriction signs:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/17/20...

This sign seems perfectly clear, provided of course one has learned the acronym "HOV".

These signs (and they are large signs, the small no-truck sign in the photo above it itself about 2 feet by 2 feet) exist at every on-ramp for I-66, sometimes more than one of them.

Re: $40 road tolls offer insight into commuter psychology

#113

Post by speedplane » Thu, Dec 07, 2017, 11:22 AM UTC

dalbasal wrote: post #98

maxxxxx wrote: post #37

My main concern is that with tolls that high that only people with a lot of money can afford them (I make six figures but I doubt I would ever pay $40 for a toll. I would need much more money). These are also often the most influential people so they may think that everything is OK because they can afford the toll and never suffer in traffic. I think the same is happening with health care. Most people in Congress hav…

I think there is a 1st principles economic rationale that agrees with you. In a nutshell, you need to get down to the "utility" concept. It's used (for example) to theoretically prove/support the idea that free exchange is always beneficial for both parties. Putting prices onto otherwise unrestricted resources likewise optimizes for utility, especially if there are tragedy of the commons issues. The catch is that uti…

Agree that dollars are not the ideal measure of utility, primarily because of of diminishing marginal returns as you get more wealthy. But they are pretty good for the majority.

Appealing to a right to an egalitarian "family dinner time" is also not terribly convincing. There are plenty of rich people who don't care much about family dinner time. There are plenty of poor who would eagerly spend half their day's wages to make it home on time.

Also, I'm not sure I buy the whole no competition argument regarding highways. The competition are the non-toll highways and driving on streets. There are several free options, and a paid option. The paid option has to compete against the free ones by setting a price that corresponds to the value it provides. If all roads were a toll road, then that would be a monopoly and a broken market, but this one seems okay.

Re: $40 road tolls offer insight into commuter psychology

#114

Post by eru » Thu, Dec 07, 2017, 11:23 AM UTC

im3w1l wrote: post #84

bambax wrote: post #72

> Which would you prefer in general: Being forbidden from doing something at all, or allowed to do it at high cost? Under standard economic theory, the latter should always be better. In the first scenario, you have one option: don't do it. In the second, you have two options, including the same option as before. This is not how the human mind works. One part is obvious: would you rather starve, with no options, or s…

Even fully rational people can prefer less options. According to game theory you're better off without a steering wheel in "chicken". And while credible threats may be uncommon, removing the possibility of defection for a group of people seems like a very common potential for gain.

Another interesting example of pre-committing to less options: sending an agent to negotiate for you.

Eg the company service rep you are talking over the phone can play the 'good cop' all day long and be nice and polite; but to make any decisions they have to call their manager, who can play the 'bad cop' or defer to 'company policy'.

(Not very relevant to the road charging example here, though.)

Re: $40 road tolls offer insight into commuter psychology

#115

Post by speedplane » Thu, Dec 07, 2017, 11:24 AM UTC

pwg wrote: post #112

AndrewKemendo wrote: post #5

I guess I'm at a loss here because I've lived in DC almost 6 years now and it never occurred to me that I-66 was HOV only during certain portions of the day. I know I am not alone in this because I see similar conversations happening elsewhere. Additionally, many comments say that single traveler HOV use is forbidden however I frequently see single drivers in the HOV lanes on 66 and elsewhere un-restricted. As a comp…

> guess I'm at a loss here because I've lived in DC almost 6 years now and it never occurred to me that I-66 was HOV only during certain portions of the day. Here is a photo of one of the HOV restriction signs: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/17/20... This sign seems perfectly clear, provided of course one has learned the acronym "HOV". These signs (and they are large signs, the small no-truck…

Agreed, they are perfectly clear to everyone who knows what they are in the first place. Not so clear to everyone else.

Re: $40 road tolls offer insight into commuter psychology

#116

Post by jlebrech » Thu, Dec 07, 2017, 11:25 AM UTC

they should fund public transport proportionally to a tax applied to fuel.

that way more cars also means more buses (or well maintained if people insist on using cars)

every year crank up the fuel tax and you'll see more people using busses.

Re: $40 road tolls offer insight into commuter psychology

#117

Post by pwg » Thu, Dec 07, 2017, 11:25 AM UTC

GVIrish wrote: post #55

AndrewKemendo wrote: post #5

I guess I'm at a loss here because I've lived in DC almost 6 years now and it never occurred to me that I-66 was HOV only during certain portions of the day. I know I am not alone in this because I see similar conversations happening elsewhere. Additionally, many comments say that single traveler HOV use is forbidden however I frequently see single drivers in the HOV lanes on 66 and elsewhere un-restricted. As a comp…

State and local police did enforce the HOV lane laws, usually by catching people on either the on or off ramp. Now if you don't have the EZPass transponder they'll just mail you the bill. A decent amount of people used to cheat in the HOV lanes but the penalties get very high very fast (fine doubles for each additional violation), so I think it worked as a decent deterrent. The people who would be most upset by this…

> the penalties get very high very fast (fine doubles for each additional violation)

It is worse than that. Second or subsequent violations that stick (meaning you don't get them dismissed at court somehow) within a five year window of a first violation also attach points [1] to one's drivers license.

[1] https://law.lis.virginia.gov/vacode/title33.2/chapter5/secti...

Re: $40 road tolls offer insight into commuter psychology

#118

Post by eru » Thu, Dec 07, 2017, 11:27 AM UTC

rdtsc wrote: post #45

mnm1 wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the likelihood of getting caught is close to 100% each day. HOV policing is an extremely high priority in the DC area and because of dedicated highways like this, also extremely easy and profitable for police. Also, I believe fines start around $250 and quickly move to $1000. There is a whole informal system of carpooling called "slugs" that works with the system. That'd be your best bet. Or, at $70 round tri…

> hire someone to wait around for 8 hours on minimum wage and still get off cheaper. $7.50 x 8 = $60. Hah. If slug lines wren't a thing, it would be a startup idea - "hire a perma-slug". They go to work with you, file papers and bring you coffee or maybe they get to hang out in museums during the day. Then you go home in the evening with them.

If slug lines weren't a thing, you could probably make it an uber-like thing were you can hire a slug (who might be just going in the same direction anyway, or just needs a few bucks) just for the occasion. No need to hold someone up the whole day.

Re: $40 road tolls offer insight into commuter psychology

#119

Post by jnty » Thu, Dec 07, 2017, 11:28 AM UTC

dalbasal wrote: post #98

maxxxxx wrote: post #37

My main concern is that with tolls that high that only people with a lot of money can afford them (I make six figures but I doubt I would ever pay $40 for a toll. I would need much more money). These are also often the most influential people so they may think that everything is OK because they can afford the toll and never suffer in traffic. I think the same is happening with health care. Most people in Congress hav…

I think there is a 1st principles economic rationale that agrees with you. In a nutshell, you need to get down to the "utility" concept. It's used (for example) to theoretically prove/support the idea that free exchange is always beneficial for both parties. Putting prices onto otherwise unrestricted resources likewise optimizes for utility, especially if there are tragedy of the commons issues. The catch is that uti…

"For poor people, $40 means you can't afford a date night this week. It's never worth it"

That's a slightly naive view of what 'poor' means. Try "can't eat this week."

Re: $40 road tolls offer insight into commuter psychology

#120

Post by eru » Thu, Dec 07, 2017, 11:33 AM UTC

sliverstorm wrote: post #32

thisisit wrote: post #11

> To many drivers' surprise, though, the tolls during rush hour were high, hitting $34.50 Monday morning and reaching $40 Tuesday. Is this like "surge pricing" on tolls? I thought most of the tolls are fixed to allow people know in advance what they must pay. If it increases based on demand, I think people will get mad. I think the psychology, if any, need not go towards the two choices. But rather what people though…

Ride sharing surge pricing gets nasty when it's a national disaster or other major unpredicted event and the rates are sexdecoupling, because it begins to look like profiteering off human misery. But moderate surge pricing is already a fact of life on ride sharing services.

Alas, in exactly those unpredicted disaster events the surge pricing would be useful.