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Shouting ‘pay your taxes,’ activists occupy Apple retail stores across France

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Re: Shouting ‘pay your taxes,’ activists occupy Apple retail stores across France

#111

Post by microtonal »

geomark wrote: post #107
r3bl wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Seems as dead simple to me as to argue about murder. If you're a company that's present in a certain geographic area, you're expected to pay taxes in that area. If you don't pay taxes and you actively work on not paying taxes, you're immoral. Done.

There's another side that says that taxes themselves are immoral given that they are paid as a result of coersion. So no, not done.

Western Europe consists of modern welfare states. This is the model that we, Europeans, chose democratically over the span of decades or even centuries. In a welfare state, people and companies that are better off pay (more) taxes to support welfare, education, infrastructure, etc.

Apple doesn't get to decide for us what our collective moral values are. If they don't like them, they should stop doing business in Europe. Otherwise, they should just pay their dues like nearly every person and small/midsize company in Europe does. Since Europe is a hugely profitable market, this is the better option for them.

Re: Shouting ‘pay your taxes,’ activists occupy Apple retail stores across France

#112

Post by jaredklewis »

Thorncorona wrote: post #22
downandout wrote: post #14

These people are protesting against the wrong entity. Apple followed the tax laws at the time, so they should protest against their government for creating loopholes that can and always will be exploited by those with the resources to do so. Public companies have a fiduciary responsibility to their shareholders to maximize profits, which includes taking advantage of any and all available strategies to reduce their ta…

Just because you can doesn't mean you should. Taking advantage of others (such as lobbying for loopholes) falls under the umbrella. Just because you can dump industrial waste into a river doesn't mean you should. Just because you can steal doesn't mean you should. Just because you can shortchange citizens doesn't mean you should. Yes laws should be passed, I agree, but that doesn't mean we can't also multilaterally a…

You can pay more tax strictly required. But by doing so, you allow competitors with more creative accountants to get a leg up. Markets select for efficient companies, and companies that make large chartible contributions to the government will be undercut and replaced by less ethical companies.

Governments can and should make fair tax laws. They failed to do so, and now it’s Apple’s fault?

Why would we want to move the responsibility of setting tax rates out of the hands of government and into the hands of corporations?

Re: Shouting ‘pay your taxes,’ activists occupy Apple retail stores across France

#115

Post by StudentStuff »

strictnein wrote: post #102
Top19 wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wanted to comment that I think corporate shame is such a beautifully under-appreciated tool people should be leveraging more, and it absolutely is as much a pillar of the political process as the legislative branch. Bringing back a societal-enforced code of ethics punishable by humiliation and public shame with a defined path of atonement is what’s going to put all corporations back in line. It absolutely has dangers…

You say "shame the corporation", I say "caused a lot of retail workers to have a bad day and probably lose some much needed income".

In a country that doesn't treat it workers worse than trash, retail workers don't get screwed out of pay when their employer cancels their shift on the same day due to protests over their abhorrent practices internationally.

Here in America, workers are trash as far as our society is concerned. Work harder! Ask for less!

Re: Shouting ‘pay your taxes,’ activists occupy Apple retail stores across France

#116

Post by mercutio2 »

realusername wrote: post #87
seanmcdirmid wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If Apple was able to realize their R&D value income taxes in France rather than the USA on all French sales, they would probably pay less, not more, than what they are now. At anyrate, value is well defined across the world. If it was define the way you want, the countries would see all their exporters as freeloaders, not paying for the infrastructure that is realizing their profit. Heck, places like Switzerland and…

> If Apple was able to realize their R&D value income taxes in France rather than the USA on all French sales, they would probably pay less, not more, than what they are now. Tax breaks are on R&D, not sales and Apple does not have any R&D in France so I don't follow you... > At anyrate, value is well defined across the world. There's no common tax laws across the world so this does not seem to be true.

Mostly irrelevant, but you keep saying Apple has no R&D in France. This has been untrue for decades. Apple’s Paris team is a thing.

Re: Shouting ‘pay your taxes,’ activists occupy Apple retail stores across France

#117

Post by innocentoldguy »

trgv wrote: post #42
innocentoldguy wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Does this sort of activism really help? I mean, this isn't an Apple-only issue and if Apple is obeying tax laws, then are they really going to consider paying more just because a small group of people chanted in one of their stores for a while? Even if Apple is breaking the law, isn't it worth putting up with a handful of activists for a few hours if it saves them millions in taxes and makes their investors happy? I…

Is there any reason people can't engage in both kinds of protest? Also, I think the chances of Apple deciding to pay its taxes due to this kind of pressure are at least as high as politicians in X country closing loopholes.

Did I suggest they couldn’t? My post is calling into question the efficacy of this style of protest, not suggesting it should not be done.

Re: Shouting ‘pay your taxes,’ activists occupy Apple retail stores across France

#118

Post by StudentStuff »

mc32 wrote: post #105
Top19 wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wanted to comment that I think corporate shame is such a beautifully under-appreciated tool people should be leveraging more, and it absolutely is as much a pillar of the political process as the legislative branch. Bringing back a societal-enforced code of ethics punishable by humiliation and public shame with a defined path of atonement is what’s going to put all corporations back in line. It absolutely has dangers…

That sounds like premodern punishment --it still exists in some societies as a common way to enforce morality where the central govt is weak. I'm sure I'm not an exception thinking this is a backwards approach to influence behavior.

What other direct action can citizens take to force Apple to comply with the law?

Better to shut their stores down than let them keep operating illegally, the French tax authorities should be arresting and charging management with tax fraud for their illicit scam. Apple is stealing from you and me, increasing our taxes with these tax scams.

Re: Shouting ‘pay your taxes,’ activists occupy Apple retail stores across France

#119

Post by usr1106 »

valuearb wrote: post #82
wavefunction wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why is it funny that these activists focus on foreign companies selling in France but not paying taxes on those sales? Seems perfectly understandable to me why foreign firms behaving like Apple would be the target.

Apple pays every franc of tax it owes France on its sales there, no one has ever shown otherwise.

Taxes in France have been collected in Euros since the beginning of 2002.

Re: Shouting ‘pay your taxes,’ activists occupy Apple retail stores across France

#120

Post by innocentoldguy »

eli_gottlieb wrote: post #39
innocentoldguy wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Does this sort of activism really help? I mean, this isn't an Apple-only issue and if Apple is obeying tax laws, then are they really going to consider paying more just because a small group of people chanted in one of their stores for a while? Even if Apple is breaking the law, isn't it worth putting up with a handful of activists for a few hours if it saves them millions in taxes and makes their investors happy? I…

>Does this sort of activism really help? Yes. It reduces the company's bottom line until they either inflict bad publicity on themselves, sit and cope with it silently, or submit to the demand to pay their lawful taxes. >I think a more effective form of activism would be to flood representatives' offices with requests to change tax laws and to vote for candidates willing to do so. You're getting downvoted because we'…

I couldn’t care less about downvotes. Most of the time, they are indicative of disagreement more than anything else, and I come here for discussion, not glad-handing people for meaningless votes. Furthermore, the issue of tax law/enforcement isn’t going to be solved by whining at Apple. If you don’t like the laws that offer legal loopholes for large corporations to lessen their tax burden, your lawmakers are the ones you need to be protesting, not Apple.
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