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Push for Gender Equality in Tech? Some Men Say It’s Gone Too Far

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Re: Push for Gender Equality in Tech? Some Men Say It’s Gone Too Far

#111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Slowly but surely we will realize that we are hitting a wall, and that no matter how far we push, or how much we incentivize, things will not change. The whole gender equality movement (and I do want to isolate this from all other identity movements) will eventually have to face the reality of women's choice, and what they choose perhaps will not be a satisfactory answer/direction the proponents of this ideology wish…

"Not to mention why isn't there a push for more women working trade jobs like construction, plumbing, underwater wielding, etc. that in itself betrays the entire "gender equality" narrative." This same comment is made every single time there's a discussion of gender equality in tech, and when examined betrays the entire "anti gender equality" narrative. People are in fact pushing for women in every single one of the…

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Re: Push for Gender Equality in Tech? Some Men Say It’s Gone Too Far

#112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Hiring because someone is " isn't the goal, IMO, and I think it sounds like your sister's career advisor did her a disservice by describing it that way. I also don't think her career advisor's POV is true, FWIW. As a woman in STEM, I don't want someone to hire me just because I'm a woman. I want someone to 1) think I'm awesome at what I do, and 2) by the way I happen to be a woman. But I also think it's true that if…

Yes but is the issue here solved by diversity hiring i.e. doing whatever it takes to hire more women or is the issue here solved by redefining how the workplace operates and making it something that enables women to succeed and enjoy the work without being highly aggressive? Actually it isn't just about women in software development, men should be included too. Plenty of men in software development are atypical compa…

A couple of different reactions from my POV:

1) "Now, I do strongly believe that encouraging women to consider STEM in school is a very good idea and that it opens a lot of doors that otherwise may of not been open. I believe this, in the long-term, is a giant step in the right direction because of cultural pressures and norms for people at a very young age."

100% agree! I was lucky enough to be blissfully oblivious at an early age, but as I grew older it became very clear to me from middle school onwards that I was considered "unusual" as a girl so interested in STEM, and people had lowered expectations for me, even from well-intentioned people I loved and respected. Luckily I'm pretty boneheaded and I like to prove people wrong, but it's unfair to expect and require that of women to stick with STEM. I agree it's a real shame, and there's just no reason to discourage people early on.

2) The problem is that even the perception of aggression in and of itself includes some gender bias issues. Multiple studies have confirmed that within the workplace, women are disproportionately for showing assertiveness and labeled "aggressive", versus men, when the evaluator is male. However, when the evaluator is female there is no such bias.

https://www.cfa.harvard.edu/cfawis/bowles.pdf

https://www.wsj.com/articles/the-price-women-leaders-pay-for...

So if the goal really is to achieve a workplace where aggressiveness is no longer perpetuating gender inequality in the workplace, that would actually be even more support for encouraging more women to join the team. If you were surprised by this statistic, as many people (both men and women) are, I think that's an example of why unconscious bias training is helpful, because that helps all of us resist these tendencies we are unaware that we have.

3) Aggression, while one part of the problem, is far from the only piece, unfortunately. It's fine and dandy to tell me "this isn't an aggressive workplace," but there's actually a lot more needed. Do you have a thoughtful maternity (and paternity, to show that you understand that women alone aren't responsible for childcare) leave policy? Are women not disproportionately interrupted in meetings, or penalized for speaking up (http://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/0001839212439994)? Will I be given fair professional feedback and evaluations (https://www.wsj.com/articles/gender-bias-at-work-turns-up-in..., https://hbr.org/2017/04/how-gender-bias-corrupts-performance...)? Can I rest assured that your workplace isn't a bro enclave where the male manager who interviewed me secretly emails the company to tell them that he thinks I'm attractive and pressures me for personal contact information, when I want to be taken seriously as a professional and evaluated on my actual skills (yes this really happened)? Can I reliably network with my colleagues in and out of the office without worrying whether they will turn into "surprise" dates that have 0% to do with the professional intent I had, forcing me to extricate myself from wasted time and energy again and again? I used to think it was just me, but literally every single one of my female friends in Bay Area tech has some story along these lines.

It's true that these are all things where sure, I could cross my fingers and trust that the existing, mostly male-run institutions are enlightened enough to recognize the pervasiveness of these issues, and fix them, and solve everything for the future. But truth be told, I think they'll get fixed a lot faster when there are more women in the workplace and in leadership who have personally experienced, and think about, these issues, for them to get fixed anytime soon. I certainly did not realize how pervasive these issues were before beginning my own career in tech--it had to happen to me before I believed it, sadly. Today I'm lucky to be working at a company that cares deeply about these issues and creates an environment that I feel proud to recruit other women into, vs. one where I feel I can't do so in good conscience.

Again, though, I do completely disavow the notion that hiring more women should mean lowering the bar. I am in total agreement that that would be a terrible idea that does no good to anyone, and in fact that's just an insulting idea to women anyway. I just simply believe that there is a lot more talent out there than gets into the door / feels welcome to stay in the industry, and that there are concrete things we can do about that.

Thanks for your thoughtful reply! Would be happy to chat more about any of the perspectives I'm sharing here.

(FWIW, I know this is tangential to the point of your argument but, I also don't think it's true that hospitals are women-dominated. Perhaps you are referring to the fact that women hold 75% of healthcare jobs; however, only 25% of hospital CEOs are women and only 21% of execs and board members are women, so it might be more accurate to say, women only dominate the least influential positions, where they would have the least say in policy and culture-norm setting. And even among doctors, nurses, and the other job positions you might be thinking of, there's a significant gender wage gap and men receive appreciably higher salaries in almost every single one. For these reasons I would not call it a woman-dominated field. http://fortune.com/2017/03/08/international-womens-day-healt...)

Re: Push for Gender Equality in Tech? Some Men Say It’s Gone Too Far

#113

So there are somethings I don’t quite understand about the pro-diversity argument. My understanding of the claim is that companies should want to have a diverse workforce because people of different backgrounds are fundamentally different. Different to the point that without inclusion of all their viewpoints you will fail to optimally solve some problems. It makes sense that if you don’t have enough women in tech you…

I think it's similar to the reason we have public education. It's a recognition of everyone having equal potential but that most people will not realize their potential because of cultural expectations creating self fulfilling prophecies or moats being dug with wealth.

Re: Push for Gender Equality in Tech? Some Men Say It’s Gone Too Far

#114

Today on HN I've learnt about KaTeX, a math typesetting system for the web[1]. As I looked into it, I was intrigued by the names of the two authors, which suggested they are females. That looked odd to me, as I thought typically this kind of project is made by men. The last time I had this kind of surprise was with Audrey Tang, the developer of Pugs, an early Perl 6 implementation. Turned out she was not born female.…

It might help if it were not frowned upon to admit that women and men are different, and that isn't a bad thing. Male nurses are still a rarity, and that's ok (though, all nurses, regardless of sex, should get paid more). Different doesn't mean better or worse, just different. Is a frog better than a toad? Well, what situation are you asking about? Are women better than men? Well, what situation are we talking about?…

Registered nurses, at the median in SF, earn about $133k a year (check US News "Best Jobs" for a roundup of regional BLS data).

I'm absolutely OK with nurses earning good salaries but I do think people are often surprised to hear how much nurses actually do earn.

Re: Push for Gender Equality in Tech? Some Men Say It’s Gone Too Far

#116
post #103

So there are somethings I don’t quite understand about the pro-diversity argument. My understanding of the claim is that companies should want to have a diverse workforce because people of different backgrounds are fundamentally different. Different to the point that without inclusion of all their viewpoints you will fail to optimally solve some problems. It makes sense that if you don’t have enough women in tech you…

I disagree with your post, and a lot of other commenters on here, as to the primary reason for the pro-diversity argument. The reason promoting diversity (e.g. in tech) is good is because there is a shortage of qualified people. If we have certain populations that could work in the field, but don't , for whatever reason, then we want to find those causes and stop them. And if those causes are historical (e.g. past di…

> The reason promoting diversity (e.g. in tech) is good is because there is a shortage of qualified people.

Are you implying that for some reason we don't hire qualified women if there are no men to fill in the roles? Would love to see your sources.

> If we have certain populations that could work in the field

Why not look to see how can we get more white men to work in the field?

> , but don't, for whatever reason, then we want to find those causes and stop them.

What if it's cheaper to just get more men instead?

> Yes, it's partially there to have equal opportunity.

It's not equal opportunity, white people won't get it.

> But (perhaps more) importantly, we know that because of past diversity, most African Americans have a harder time in education growing up.

I've heard it's because of socialism, can you prove that that's not the case?

> This probably shows up as people have e.g. lower scores on tests.

Me having a lower score on a test, doesn't mean that it's because I was historically oppressed.

> imagine what they could do if we help them out with better education!

Imagine if education would be just be better in general for all, I wouldn't leave out the uneducated white men.

> I agree, but I much prefer to show why diversity tends to be a win-win, not a "you lose so we can win" situation.

I have yet to see any solid evidence why having a majority white male tech population is a bad thing(and I'm not even going to get into the are Asians white or not argument).

Overall my issue with your point of view is that I have yet to see any proof for anything that it's based on. Most people with your point of view will point to some statistics that are convenient to them (earnings of all women vs. men) and ignore inconvenient ones(male vs. female mortality rate) and interpret it the way they want it (we less women in tech, must be because of sexism).

Re: Push for Gender Equality in Tech? Some Men Say It’s Gone Too Far

#117
post #100

So there are somethings I don’t quite understand about the pro-diversity argument. My understanding of the claim is that companies should want to have a diverse workforce because people of different backgrounds are fundamentally different. Different to the point that without inclusion of all their viewpoints you will fail to optimally solve some problems. It makes sense that if you don’t have enough women in tech you…

You might not expect the gender and ethnic background proportions to 100% reflect society (I won't get into that) but even if that's the case Software Engineering is far more skewed than most comparable industries (science academia, other engineering fields etc) suggesting that we've not hit natural diversity levels yet.

> suggesting that we've not hit natural diversity levels yet.

What is the natural level and how did you find it?

Re: Push for Gender Equality in Tech? Some Men Say It’s Gone Too Far

#118
post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It might help if it were not frowned upon to admit that women and men are different, and that isn't a bad thing. Male nurses are still a rarity, and that's ok (though, all nurses, regardless of sex, should get paid more). Different doesn't mean better or worse, just different. Is a frog better than a toad? Well, what situation are you asking about? Are women better than men? Well, what situation are we talking about?…

Registered nurses, at the median in SF, earn about $133k a year (check US News "Best Jobs" for a roundup of regional BLS data). I'm absolutely OK with nurses earning good salaries but I do think people are often surprised to hear how much nurses actually do earn.

That is significantly better than I thought =) I'll dial back my disappointment, a bit.

Re: Push for Gender Equality in Tech? Some Men Say It’s Gone Too Far

#119
post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You might not expect the gender and ethnic background proportions to 100% reflect society (I won't get into that) but even if that's the case Software Engineering is far more skewed than most comparable industries (science academia, other engineering fields etc) suggesting that we've not hit natural diversity levels yet.

> suggesting that we've not hit natural diversity levels yet. What is the natural level and how did you find it?

I'm not suggesting there is one, I'm deliberately not taking a view on that. What I am saying is that if one does exist, as some commenters are saying, we're likely still not there yet as many other similar industries have far higher levels of diversity.

Re: Push for Gender Equality in Tech? Some Men Say It’s Gone Too Far

#120

Today on HN I've learnt about KaTeX, a math typesetting system for the web[1]. As I looked into it, I was intrigued by the names of the two authors, which suggested they are females. That looked odd to me, as I thought typically this kind of project is made by men. The last time I had this kind of surprise was with Audrey Tang, the developer of Pugs, an early Perl 6 implementation. Turned out she was not born female.…

It might help if it were not frowned upon to admit that women and men are different, and that isn't a bad thing. Male nurses are still a rarity, and that's ok (though, all nurses, regardless of sex, should get paid more). Different doesn't mean better or worse, just different. Is a frog better than a toad? Well, what situation are you asking about? Are women better than men? Well, what situation are we talking about?…

Male nurses still make more on average than female nurses:

https://www.ucsf.edu/news/2015/03/124266/male-registered-nur...

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