Push for Gender Equality in Tech? Some Men Say It’s Gone Too Far • Hacker News Board

Re: Push for Gender Equality in Tech? Some Men Say It’s Gone Too Far

#11

Post by cwackerfuss » Sat, Sep 23, 2017, 9:11 PM UTC

CyberDildonics wrote: post #9

cwackerfuss wrote: post #3

It's sad to see men regressing at the idea of diversity in tech. It can't just be a boys club. The value in employment diversity is that we give people of all backgrounds a fair shot at opportunities. IMO it's actually a very complex issue strategically leveling the playing field. At Google, something like only 1 in 5 tech workers are female, and their diversity practices are fairly extreme compared to the norm. It's…

No one is 'regressing' at the idea of diversity in tech. Framing it that way is a huge part of the problem and phenomenally disingenuous and simplistic. The divide is really whether you want force extra diversity at the expense of a meritocracy or if you want a meritocracy. With all the 'more women' vs. 'boys club' nonsense, a person not thinking critically could forget that some people want to work with the best peo…

I'm actually saying basically same thing in the middle part of my response. But meritocracies sometimes need to take a hard look in the mirror and admit cognitive biases and tweak the dials accordingly.

Re: Push for Gender Equality in Tech? Some Men Say It’s Gone Too Far

#12

Post by eropple » Sat, Sep 23, 2017, 9:12 PM UTC

CyberDildonics wrote: post #9

cwackerfuss wrote: post #3

It's sad to see men regressing at the idea of diversity in tech. It can't just be a boys club. The value in employment diversity is that we give people of all backgrounds a fair shot at opportunities. IMO it's actually a very complex issue strategically leveling the playing field. At Google, something like only 1 in 5 tech workers are female, and their diversity practices are fairly extreme compared to the norm. It's…

No one is 'regressing' at the idea of diversity in tech. Framing it that way is a huge part of the problem and phenomenally disingenuous and simplistic. The divide is really whether you want force extra diversity at the expense of a meritocracy or if you want a meritocracy. With all the 'more women' vs. 'boys club' nonsense, a person not thinking critically could forget that some people want to work with the best peo…

No meritocracy exists in tech at any level and claims to the contrary so strangely come predicated on a level of social and cultural privilege that, for some shocking reason, those without that very seriously considered and measured (stop laughing) merit so often seem to lack.

Re: Push for Gender Equality in Tech? Some Men Say It’s Gone Too Far

#13

Post by Analemma_ » Sat, Sep 23, 2017, 9:14 PM UTC

CyberDildonics wrote: post #9

cwackerfuss wrote: post #3

It's sad to see men regressing at the idea of diversity in tech. It can't just be a boys club. The value in employment diversity is that we give people of all backgrounds a fair shot at opportunities. IMO it's actually a very complex issue strategically leveling the playing field. At Google, something like only 1 in 5 tech workers are female, and their diversity practices are fairly extreme compared to the norm. It's…

No one is 'regressing' at the idea of diversity in tech. Framing it that way is a huge part of the problem and phenomenally disingenuous and simplistic. The divide is really whether you want force extra diversity at the expense of a meritocracy or if you want a meritocracy. With all the 'more women' vs. 'boys club' nonsense, a person not thinking critically could forget that some people want to work with the best peo…

You need to get over this infantile faith that tech is a meritocracy. It’s not, and it never has been. That’s a comforting and self-serving myth we keep telling ourselves.

Re: Push for Gender Equality in Tech? Some Men Say It’s Gone Too Far

#14

Post by CyberDildonics » Sat, Sep 23, 2017, 9:15 PM UTC

cwackerfuss wrote: post #11

CyberDildonics wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No one is 'regressing' at the idea of diversity in tech. Framing it that way is a huge part of the problem and phenomenally disingenuous and simplistic. The divide is really whether you want force extra diversity at the expense of a meritocracy or if you want a meritocracy. With all the 'more women' vs. 'boys club' nonsense, a person not thinking critically could forget that some people want to work with the best peo…

I'm actually saying basically same thing in the middle part of my response. But meritocracies sometimes need to take a hard look in the mirror and admit cognitive biases and tweak the dials accordingly.

> But meritocracies sometimes need to take a hard look in the mirror and admit cognitive biases

Getting closer to a meritocracy implies weeding out cognitive biases already.

Re: Push for Gender Equality in Tech? Some Men Say It’s Gone Too Far

#15

Post by the_evacuator » Sat, Sep 23, 2017, 9:15 PM UTC

jimmaswell wrote: post #10

the_evacuator wrote: post #7

I wish threads about this clown would get disappeared down the HN memory hole the same way threads about Trump get handled.

This comment made me upvote the post. There are legitimate issues being brought up and I'm glad they're not automatically silenced on here.

There are also legitimate issues being brought up in other political posts but they have been banned anyway.

Re: Push for Gender Equality in Tech? Some Men Say It’s Gone Too Far

#16

Post by CyberDildonics » Sat, Sep 23, 2017, 9:17 PM UTC

Analemma_ wrote: post #13

CyberDildonics wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No one is 'regressing' at the idea of diversity in tech. Framing it that way is a huge part of the problem and phenomenally disingenuous and simplistic. The divide is really whether you want force extra diversity at the expense of a meritocracy or if you want a meritocracy. With all the 'more women' vs. 'boys club' nonsense, a person not thinking critically could forget that some people want to work with the best peo…

You need to get over this infantile faith that tech is a meritocracy. It’s not, and it never has been. That’s a comforting and self-serving myth we keep telling ourselves.

Where did I say that it was? I'm saying a meritocracy is a goal.

You also gave nothing to back up your assertion, but again, I'm talking about priorities.

Re: Push for Gender Equality in Tech? Some Men Say It’s Gone Too Far

#17

Post by KirinDave » Sat, Sep 23, 2017, 9:20 PM UTC

deepnotderp wrote: post #8

cwackerfuss wrote: post #3

It's sad to see men regressing at the idea of diversity in tech. It can't just be a boys club. The value in employment diversity is that we give people of all backgrounds a fair shot at opportunities. IMO it's actually a very complex issue strategically leveling the playing field. At Google, something like only 1 in 5 tech workers are female, and their diversity practices are fairly extreme compared to the norm. It's…

> and have equal rights I'm sorry, what human rights are women lacking now? EDIT: I should clarify, in western democracies and developed eastern countries

Women in the United States do not have a universal right to health care. Even ignoring affordability, many localities have made it effectively impossible to obtain health care services that are related to reproductive health care.

If these services were a right (even at the level of "you have a right to purchase these if you can afford them") that practice would be illegal and perhaps even unconstitutional.

And this does more than affect women seeking abortions. Many women with hormonal regulation issues cannot get the care and medication they need because access to medicines which are also birth control is not a right. Largely because of religious objections.

Meanwhile men have an unchallenged right to vasectomies. Feel free to correct me, but it appears to be legal and obtainable as a procedure in every state.

We could also point to evidence that there is a practical lack of rights to fair trials in sexual assault cases, but I'll leave that to someone else.

Re: Push for Gender Equality in Tech? Some Men Say It’s Gone Too Far

#18

Post by ooopsnevermind » Sat, Sep 23, 2017, 9:20 PM UTC

gambiting wrote: post #6

cwackerfuss wrote: post #3

It's sad to see men regressing at the idea of diversity in tech. It can't just be a boys club. The value in employment diversity is that we give people of all backgrounds a fair shot at opportunities. IMO it's actually a very complex issue strategically leveling the playing field. At Google, something like only 1 in 5 tech workers are female, and their diversity practices are fairly extreme compared to the norm. It's…

I brought it up before, I will bring it up now - my sister was going to go into CS until her career adviser(also a woman) told her she's made a great choice since someone will have to hire her because she is a woman. She changed her course choices the next day. I'm all 100% for giving everyone an equal chance. I am not for hiring because someone is .

"Hiring because someone is " isn't the goal, IMO, and I think it sounds like your sister's career advisor did her a disservice by describing it that way. I also don't think her career advisor's POV is true, FWIW.

As a woman in STEM, I don't want someone to hire me just because I'm a woman. I want someone to 1) think I'm awesome at what I do, and 2) by the way I happen to be a woman. But I also think it's true that if 2) is a fact about you, it's harder for you to prove 1) than it would be otherwise, and that's not right. My belief is that the reason for encouraging diversity initiatives are that there are lots of talented women (and other minority groups) out there who are being overlooked but deserve to get noticed and hired, and the goal is always to surface talented people to hire, women or otherwise.

Re: Push for Gender Equality in Tech? Some Men Say It’s Gone Too Far

#19

Post by SomeStupidPoint » Sat, Sep 23, 2017, 9:21 PM UTC

cwackerfuss wrote: post #11

CyberDildonics wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No one is 'regressing' at the idea of diversity in tech. Framing it that way is a huge part of the problem and phenomenally disingenuous and simplistic. The divide is really whether you want force extra diversity at the expense of a meritocracy or if you want a meritocracy. With all the 'more women' vs. 'boys club' nonsense, a person not thinking critically could forget that some people want to work with the best peo…

I'm actually saying basically same thing in the middle part of my response. But meritocracies sometimes need to take a hard look in the mirror and admit cognitive biases and tweak the dials accordingly.

Your post actually argued we should introduce cognitive biases, and hire unequally.

Framing doing that as supporting gender equality is the Orwellian doublespeak that people are starting to object to -- you can support diversity without supporting hiring on the basis of race, gender, etc.

Re: Push for Gender Equality in Tech? Some Men Say It’s Gone Too Far

#20

Post by thevardanian » Sat, Sep 23, 2017, 9:22 PM UTC

cwackerfuss wrote: post #3

It's sad to see men regressing at the idea of diversity in tech. It can't just be a boys club. The value in employment diversity is that we give people of all backgrounds a fair shot at opportunities. IMO it's actually a very complex issue strategically leveling the playing field. At Google, something like only 1 in 5 tech workers are female, and their diversity practices are fairly extreme compared to the norm. It's…

Slowly but surely we will realize that we are hitting a wall, and that no matter how far we push, or how much we incentivize, things will not change. The whole gender equality movement (and I do want to isolate this from all other identity movements) will eventually have to face the reality of women's choice, and what they choose perhaps will not be a satisfactory answer/direction the proponents of this ideology wish to see.

Norwegian countries are by far more "advanced" in their implementation and encouragement of "gender equality" at the work place, but they've eventually have had to come to terms with certain facts that betrays the whole "gender equality" narrative. You can't force women to choose. Not to mention why isn't there a push for more women working trade jobs like construction, plumbing, underwater wielding, etc. that in itself betrays the entire "gender equality" narrative.

There's a Norwegian documentary exploring this subject called "The Gender Equality Paradox" https://vimeo.com/19707588. It's a good documentary and suggest people view it.