ESPN Football Analyst Walks Away, Disturbed by Brain Trauma on Field • Hacker News Board

Re: ESPN Football Analyst Walks Away, Disturbed by Brain Trauma on Field

#111

Post by Joky » Thu, Aug 31, 2017, 6:42 PM UTC

geebee wrote: post #105

rm_-rf_slash wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

American football is also obsessively measured. The difference of a few yards at any point in time can be the difference of a game. Players are also obsessively measured for their performance, so every second counts towards a professional player's career - and their compensation. Players are highly incentivized to "give it their all", and that's how people end up getting injured or receive massive head trauma. Hockey…

I don't understand Rugby, Australian rules, or Gaelic football especially well (or US football for that matter, though I've watched it casually over the years), but my understanding is that tacking in these sports has a different purpose and that tackling technique reflects this. You may be on to something with you comment about yards - in American football, it can even be a game of inches. As a result, tackling isn'…

Another difference on tackling in Rugby: you can only tackle the ball carrier.

Re: ESPN Football Analyst Walks Away, Disturbed by Brain Trauma on Field

#112

Post by mabub24 » Thu, Aug 31, 2017, 6:42 PM UTC

BearGoesChirp wrote: post #87

kpwags wrote: post #24

Good for him. I stopped following football after watching League of Denial on PBS. If I'm at the bar or something and it happens to be on, I might passively watch it, but I haven't sought it out since. I just can't support the NFL. I do feel torn though because I love hockey. I know they're dealing with similar controversies. My justification, however flimsy it might be is that I don't like the fighting (I might be i…

>I just can't support the NFL. I'm not sure what the NFL does that's wrong. Their players get significant fame, are consenting adults, and get pay checks that many would trade even more of their health for. It is the college level, and especially the high school level, that I see the major problems at. When you have kids, or even people who aren't paid, risking their health it crosses a significant line. If college p…

> I'm not sure what the NFL does that's wrong.

I don't think that's a particularly strong stance to take. The NFL has been fairly active in trying to dismiss or ignore this evidence. They are not merely standing by the sidelines.

One recent thing the NFL has done is bullied NIH researchers in concussion research in order to divert funding to their own NFL researchers.[0] Serious questions have been raised about the independence of those researchers. It's like Big Tobacco all over again.

There have been a number of other instances where the NFL has tried to discredit or hide concussion research that details how dangerous Football is. [1]

Besides paying their players, the NFL actively targets kids and amateurs through marketing. They buy the merchandise and become long term fans. By hiding and dismissing the concussion research they are choosing profits over safety.

All of this would be okay if the true dangers of football were fully transparent. Adults can consent to risks when they know the risks they are facing. In this case, the NFL has hidden that risk.

[0]: http://www.espn.com/espn/otl/story/_/id/15667689/congression...

[1]: http://www.espn.com/espn/otl/story/_/id/14711203/nfl-donatio...

Re: ESPN Football Analyst Walks Away, Disturbed by Brain Trauma on Field

#113

Post by amiramir » Thu, Aug 31, 2017, 6:42 PM UTC

beachy wrote: post #17

Speaking as someone from a rugby-playing nation, where mostly players wear no protection except mouthguards and shin pads, American Football is spectacular but insane. Wearing protective helmets just ups the ante as players launch into each other with full force. In rugby, you don't tackle someone like that as you'll hurt yourself, and fail to stop the opponent. Rugby is a plenty violent sport, and has its own health…

Rugby has also included head injury assessments (HIA) into its laws. They sports governing body introduced HIAs in 2012 and they have been getting more stringent over the years.

At he elite level a player who is suspected of having taken a significant knock to the head can be substituted off the field for 10 minutes to be assessed by a doctor. The referee, assistant referees, sideline medics or the television match official can make the get the player off the field and to the medic. Players almost always want to play on after a knock so the decision is left to officials who may have seen or heard a head impact. If a player fails the assessment then they do not return to the field and further tests will be performed after the match. If the player passes then the substitution is reversed. If an incident is missed during a game then an assessment can be ordered after reviewing a recording of the game.

The laws of rugby also include clauses about contact with the head, tipping a player onto their head, or knocking a jumping player in such a way as to make them land on their head.

Rugby players are getting bigger and faster and the hits are getting commensurately more energetic. Rugby is trying to keep players safe. Whether these measures help remains to be seen but I think the governing bodies take player safety pretty seriously.

One interesting stat that I heard is that one of the things that seems to be inversely correlated with head injury is neck strength so we may see more players training their already powerful necks.

Re: ESPN Football Analyst Walks Away, Disturbed by Brain Trauma on Field

#114

Post by emodendroket » Thu, Aug 31, 2017, 6:42 PM UTC

mcculley wrote: post #104

bluesroo wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not well-versed on the topic, but I'd guess that an abrupt change in protection could lead to more injuries in the short-term.

Ah. That's a good point. I know nothing about football. I just assumed that they could make changes if motivated given the enormous amount of money it generates.

Changes are made regularly, often to encourage player safety. But I think you can only make a game so safe when it's predicated on tackling people.

Re: ESPN Football Analyst Walks Away, Disturbed by Brain Trauma on Field

#115

Post by geebee » Thu, Aug 31, 2017, 6:42 PM UTC

beachy wrote: post #17

Speaking as someone from a rugby-playing nation, where mostly players wear no protection except mouthguards and shin pads, American Football is spectacular but insane. Wearing protective helmets just ups the ante as players launch into each other with full force. In rugby, you don't tackle someone like that as you'll hurt yourself, and fail to stop the opponent. Rugby is a plenty violent sport, and has its own health…

Sounds like you know a bit about this - any chance you could weigh in on my question above? Does tackling serve a different strategic purpose in rugby vs American football (ie., not giving up an inch can be a big deal in US football), and could this also be partially responsible for the brain rattling quality of tackling?

Re: ESPN Football Analyst Walks Away, Disturbed by Brain Trauma on Field

#116

Post by amiramir » Thu, Aug 31, 2017, 6:43 PM UTC

Isamu wrote: post #49

beachy wrote: post #17

Speaking as someone from a rugby-playing nation, where mostly players wear no protection except mouthguards and shin pads, American Football is spectacular but insane. Wearing protective helmets just ups the ante as players launch into each other with full force. In rugby, you don't tackle someone like that as you'll hurt yourself, and fail to stop the opponent. Rugby is a plenty violent sport, and has its own health…

> Wearing protective helmets just ups the ante as players launch into each other with full force. Agreed, but funny thing is the protection has gradually developed over time to limit injury. American football used to be played with no protection, then with very limited protection, leather helmets, pads. Then hard helmets, armored pads. Etc. Kind of an arms race, as with increased protection, the hits keep getting har…

This phenomenon is known as Risk Compensation[1].

[1]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Risk_compensation

Re: ESPN Football Analyst Walks Away, Disturbed by Brain Trauma on Field

#117

Post by lostlogin » Thu, Aug 31, 2017, 6:44 PM UTC

ThrustVectoring wrote: post #84

Pxtl wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hockey has the advantage that the sport could we reworked into something less violent. Hockey could survive a change to the rules that would reduce blows to the head. Football is such an intrinsically contact sport that I don't think a safer game would even be recognizable. Actually, that might be worse... If hockey turns out to have as bad a concussion problem, the leadership of the sport is likely even more culpabl…

I think the rules could get reworked to make it less dangerous for brain injury. Take a cue from Australian Rules Football: remove all padding and make high tackles that endanger the head illegal.

Rugby and league have no padding and those rules. It doesn't appear to anywhere close to enough.

Re: ESPN Football Analyst Walks Away, Disturbed by Brain Trauma on Field

#118

Post by santoshalper » Thu, Aug 31, 2017, 6:45 PM UTC

guiomie wrote: post #58

kpwags wrote: post #24

Good for him. I stopped following football after watching League of Denial on PBS. If I'm at the bar or something and it happens to be on, I might passively watch it, but I haven't sought it out since. I just can't support the NFL. I do feel torn though because I love hockey. I know they're dealing with similar controversies. My justification, however flimsy it might be is that I don't like the fighting (I might be i…

I'm on the same side as you about the fights. I'm just not a fan of the hypocrisy of letting people fight their anger away on national TV when someone doing the same in a public space would get arrested. I've played hockey, I get the whole aspect of being emotionally invested in the game, but I still don't think it's the right thing to do. Otherwise, I always thought the concussion aspect was much less worst in the N…

Hits are much less frequent in hockey (they happen several times per play in Football) and the players are much smaller, but they are moving really fast and playing on ice. I think the worst hits in Hockey would rival anything in Football, but I don't think the prevalence of CTE will be as high.

Re: ESPN Football Analyst Walks Away, Disturbed by Brain Trauma on Field

#119

Post by santoshalper » Thu, Aug 31, 2017, 6:47 PM UTC

BearGoesChirp wrote: post #87

kpwags wrote: post #24

Good for him. I stopped following football after watching League of Denial on PBS. If I'm at the bar or something and it happens to be on, I might passively watch it, but I haven't sought it out since. I just can't support the NFL. I do feel torn though because I love hockey. I know they're dealing with similar controversies. My justification, however flimsy it might be is that I don't like the fighting (I might be i…

>I just can't support the NFL. I'm not sure what the NFL does that's wrong. Their players get significant fame, are consenting adults, and get pay checks that many would trade even more of their health for. It is the college level, and especially the high school level, that I see the major problems at. When you have kids, or even people who aren't paid, risking their health it crosses a significant line. If college p…

Also, the NFL uses College and High School Football as free development leagues. If HS and CFB didn't exist, where would the NFL get their players?

Re: ESPN Football Analyst Walks Away, Disturbed by Brain Trauma on Field

#120

Post by lostlogin » Thu, Aug 31, 2017, 6:51 PM UTC

X86BSD wrote: post #101

kpwags wrote: post #24

Good for him. I stopped following football after watching League of Denial on PBS. If I'm at the bar or something and it happens to be on, I might passively watch it, but I haven't sought it out since. I just can't support the NFL. I do feel torn though because I love hockey. I know they're dealing with similar controversies. My justification, however flimsy it might be is that I don't like the fighting (I might be i…

I don't follow rugby as close as I should to ask this question but I don't recall having heard or read anything regarding that sport and head trauma. And it is just as contact driven as football. Is it just not as popular and hence doesn't get the same level of scrutiny?

It's pretty bad and has had an increase in scrutiny of late here in New Zealand, in part because of some of the countries great teams and players appear to be suffering severe consequences. http://www.nzherald.co.nz/sport/news/article.cfm?c_id=4&obje...