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When all job differences are accounted for, the pay gap almost disappears

economist.com

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Re: When all job differences are accounted for, the pay gap almost disappears

#111

Post by rufusroflpunch »

johnfn wrote: post #17

The whole point is that society systematically undervaluing women-dominated professions is sexism. It makes sense that the pay gap disappears when the job differences go away, because the job differences are the pay gap. A good example is teaching. Teaching is an incredibly valuable job. It's also dominated by women. It also happens to be way, way underpaid. It embarrasses me to see this on HN.

Considering that there is an entire "Equal Pay for Equal Work" movement, this is actually extremely relevant. TFA addresses this issue specifically. It's saying that people who are shooting for "equal pay for equal work" are barking up the wrong tree. This article, which you say is embarrassing, is actually agreeing with you.

Re: When all job differences are accounted for, the pay gap almost disappears

#112

Post by haikuginger »

darawk wrote: post #35
Others wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is gender roles. Women are taught by society to think that, as women, they should go into certain careers. These careers, like teaching, tend to be lower paid than the careers men are encouraged to go into.

Now that is an explanation I can get behind. I think that there is a degree to which society socializes women to prefer lower paid jobs. That I think is absolutely legitimate. But the idea that sexism causes us to value those jobs less is, I think, absurd.

https://www.nytimes.com/2016/03/20/upshot/as-women-take-over...

Re: When all job differences are accounted for, the pay gap almost disappears

#113

Post by rayiner »

johnfn wrote: post #17

The whole point is that society systematically undervaluing women-dominated professions is sexism. It makes sense that the pay gap disappears when the job differences go away, because the job differences are the pay gap. A good example is teaching. Teaching is an incredibly valuable job. It's also dominated by women. It also happens to be way, way underpaid. It embarrasses me to see this on HN.

You've got the causation backwards. Society pushes women into jobs it values less. There is nothing about teaching that makes it a woman's job--the majority of teachers in India for example are men.

Re: When all job differences are accounted for, the pay gap almost disappears

#114

Post by cannonedhamster »

darawk wrote: post #42
burkaman wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What do you think causes such extreme gender disparities in positions like CEO, or board of directors?

I don't know. There are many possible explanations. One is sexism. Another is that women are less likely to negotiate. Another is that maybe women tend to be CEOs of companies that are less valuable, or that rely less on the expertise of their CEO.

Women are less likely to negotiate because of the societal views of women who are shrewd negotiators. The societal pressure on women to be passive is immense. Just look at women in politics for numerous examples. That's what's sexist about it. There are different expectations of people based solely on gender, and that further divides into race with black women at the bottom of that pool.

You need only listen to the experiences of women founders in Silicon Valley to realize your comment really doesn't match up with what really happens. Women, especially in the tech sector, are treated like personal sex objects of some VCs.

There is not a single situation you listed above that cannot be attributed to similarity bias or cultural bias against, both completely unintentional.

Re: When all job differences are accounted for, the pay gap almost disappears

#115

Post by bllguo »

johnfn wrote: post #51
darawk wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's not sexism, though. That's women negotiating less.

It's absolutely sexism that salary negotiations favor behaviors that men are comfortable with and women are not.

To me this is moot. At this point you're fighting against the natural inclinations of the human mind. I'd pick my battles more carefully. There are other issues related to sex that are much easier to attack, with much greater potential impact.

Re: When all job differences are accounted for, the pay gap almost disappears

#116

Post by cannonedhamster »

pithic wrote: post #66
johnfn wrote: post #17

The whole point is that society systematically undervaluing women-dominated professions is sexism. It makes sense that the pay gap disappears when the job differences go away, because the job differences are the pay gap. A good example is teaching. Teaching is an incredibly valuable job. It's also dominated by women. It also happens to be way, way underpaid. It embarrasses me to see this on HN.

Perhaps teaching isn't quite as valuable as you think. Has that ever occurred to you? Or, perhaps unctuous grandstanding should supplant market forces.

Let me know when the US has "market forces" unattached to rent seeking behavior. There are no major markets that aren't receiving mass amounts of corporate welfare in the form of tax breaks, incentives, or monopoly protections.

Re: When all job differences are accounted for, the pay gap almost disappears

#117

Post by gaius »

johnfn wrote: post #17

The whole point is that society systematically undervaluing women-dominated professions is sexism. It makes sense that the pay gap disappears when the job differences go away, because the job differences are the pay gap. A good example is teaching. Teaching is an incredibly valuable job. It's also dominated by women. It also happens to be way, way underpaid. It embarrasses me to see this on HN.

It also happens to be way, way underpaid.

A teacher's job security and pension plan aren't available in the private sector at all. It's a complete myth that they are underpaid, focusing on salary alone and not considering the value of the whole package.

Re: When all job differences are accounted for, the pay gap almost disappears

#118

Post by hypersoar »

klipt wrote: post #27
johnfn wrote: post #17

The whole point is that society systematically undervaluing women-dominated professions is sexism. It makes sense that the pay gap disappears when the job differences go away, because the job differences are the pay gap. A good example is teaching. Teaching is an incredibly valuable job. It's also dominated by women. It also happens to be way, way underpaid. It embarrasses me to see this on HN.

Teachers make more per hour than doctors, when you factor in benefits like pension and not having huge medical school loans: http://www.bestmedicaldegrees.com/salary-of-doctors/

That graphic assumes that doctors work 59.6 hours per week, which sounds like a number pulled from somewhere, and that teachers work 40 hours per week, which sounds like they're assuming a "standard" work week. But that only makes sense if you assume teachers barely work more than the school day itself, which seems implausible. It also assumes that teachers work 38 weeks per year. That would mean a 3.5-month summer break, which doesn't really match with reality.

Re: When all job differences are accounted for, the pay gap almost disappears

#119

Post by UncleMeat »

darawk wrote: post #22
johnfn wrote: post #17

The whole point is that society systematically undervaluing women-dominated professions is sexism. It makes sense that the pay gap disappears when the job differences go away, because the job differences are the pay gap. A good example is teaching. Teaching is an incredibly valuable job. It's also dominated by women. It also happens to be way, way underpaid. It embarrasses me to see this on HN.

> The whole point is that the way society systematically undervalues women-dominated professions is sexism at work. What? Can you explain how that is possible? As far as I know, people value things according to what value they obtain from them. There is no way for that to be 'sexist'. People are paid according to the value they produce. To call that sexist is just completely inconsistent with any reasonable conceptio…

Pay and prestige of educators has diminished as it has become more female dominated. This is a pattern seen across many industries when they shift from male dominated to female dominated. This suggests that there is a relationship between gender distributions in a job and its prestige and value given by society.

Not all jobs have direct "money in, money out" relations that you can use to judge value. This opens the door for all sorts of cultural bias that affects how people decide how much a particular job is "worth".

Re: When all job differences are accounted for, the pay gap almost disappears

#120

Post by abritinthebay »

mhermher wrote: post #64
abritinthebay wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you just adjust everything away... well yes. But the point is that those things you have to make adjustments for are the problem .

The idea is that you're looking for the effect caused by gender/sex, so you have to remove the contributions of other factors. Theoretically, what the comment is saying is that women get paid less because they take more leave, not because they are women. Again, theoretically, if men took leave to the same extent, their salaries would also decrease to the same extent. That's the point of controlling for other variable…

But given that the variables (like leave) are intrinsically linked to gender via biological and social factors... you can’t favtor them away with that excuse.

Some perhaps but not most, and certainly not all.

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