Tesla factory workers pushing for a union send demands to Tesla's Board • Hacker News Board

Re: Tesla factory workers pushing for a union send demands to Tesla's Board

#111

Post by Inconel » Tue, Aug 01, 2017, 2:37 AM UTC

beaconstudios wrote: post #107

Inconel wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Disclaimer: While I don't work at Tesla I do work as a technician at another Musk company, SpaceX, so I'm not exactly impartial. I'm broadly supportive of private sector unions, and I think it would be great if the relationship between unions and employers in the US would more closely match what I've observed in Europe and Japan. With that being said, I think it's perfectly reasonable to be supportive of unions in ge…

I'm surprised that unions would have a problem with racism and homophobia given they're usually run by pretty far-left-minded people.

It is of course important to note that my experience with unions is by no mean exhaustive, I can only describe what I experienced at one particular employer, this very well might not be an issue elsewhere. On the other hand, it's my understanding that historically, in the US at least, unions were somewhat frequently used as a way to keep minorities out of certain professions.

I would also caution against assuming that because unions, and their members, might share similar views with traditionally left wing political parties in regards to employment policies, that these views extend to being left wing or "progressive" on non-work related issues. I would probably describe myself as being well to the left of mainstream US politics when it comes to most social issues, and probably fairly to the left on economic issues, and I did not get the sense that most union coworkers shared these sentiments in the least.

Re: Tesla factory workers pushing for a union send demands to Tesla's Board

#112

Post by erikpukinskis » Tue, Aug 01, 2017, 2:51 AM UTC

k-mcgrady wrote: post #65

Are unions demonised in the US in a similar vain to socialism? i.e. made out to be an evil that don't work despite working quite well in many, many other countries? I'm seriously curious about this as I'm quite taken aback at the general hate unions are getting ITT.

The part of I don't like is that unions are given monopoly status within the company.

Most of the unions I've seen aren't voluntary. When I was in grad school, I was forced to pay dues into the union. I don't like that. I think there should be as many unions as employees like. I don't understand how the union can be understood to be negotiating on my behalf if I can't choose not to have them negotiate on my behalf.

Once the union has negotiated a budget for itself, it has an independent mandatee to sustain itself, which is sort of detached from any selective pressures. If I'm a bad employee, I get fired. If the company is bad, it goes bankrupt. If a union behaves badly, the consequences are indirect. A bad union only gets its comeuppance if the company goes under.

Because the selective pressure on it is indirect, evolution can't happen within regimes, it can only happen when union workers transfer (or don't) organizational knowledge into a new host company. Basically, like a virus. It's just weird to have an entity that doesn't face any consequences.

To the extent that employees have collective bargaining power, they can just use it. Get a group together, write a letter to Elon, and threaten to quit. See what he says. If you have any leverage, you can use it. If you don't have any leverage why would the union fare any better?

Re: Tesla factory workers pushing for a union send demands to Tesla's Board

#113

Post by losteverything » Tue, Aug 01, 2017, 3:09 AM UTC

DrScump wrote: post #89

losteverything wrote: post #36

Does anyone know (or provide link) to current worker salary, benefits and work rules? I would bet they already have adopted most of the obvious union won rules such as tenure, scheduling, overtime, sick leave, time off, differential, bidding, etc... Even Wal-Mart has adopted policies that are staples in some bargained areas. Just not "no termination clause" among others My experience says union national leadership ca…

May we ask which union(s) you have been a member of?

No. Tmi

Re: Tesla factory workers pushing for a union send demands to Tesla's Board

#114

Post by PhasmaFelis » Tue, Aug 01, 2017, 3:10 AM UTC

jon_richards wrote: post #30

PhasmaFelis wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah. Amazon's treatment of its warehouse staff is famously awful.

To be fair, Amazon's treatment of their software engineers is also famously awful.

The warehouses are worse. One of the big stories was that Amazon engineers are frequently seen crying at work, which is true. That wouldn't happen in the warehouses, because they have an actual on-the-books rule that anyone crying at work is to be fired immediately.

Re: Tesla factory workers pushing for a union send demands to Tesla's Board

#115

Post by mohaine » Tue, Aug 01, 2017, 4:04 AM UTC

k-mcgrady wrote: post #65

Are unions demonised in the US in a similar vain to socialism? i.e. made out to be an evil that don't work despite working quite well in many, many other countries? I'm seriously curious about this as I'm quite taken aback at the general hate unions are getting ITT.

The unions just got a little too powerful here and then abused their power.

Second hand things I've heard: (I know the people who saw these firsthand)

1) Detroit had rooms were extra workers would just watch TV all day. It they didn't show they could be fired but as long as they did they were kept on the books. The jobs were in the contract and the union wouldn't let them go away.

2) The lines had been designed to be run by 4 people each but they kept 5 for years just keep the union happy. A good company would buy these workers out or just let attrition take its course but they had to restaff at this level for years. This was finally solved by a strike where the replacement non-union, lightly trained office workers set 6 straight shifts of new plant output records.

3) A general sand bagging to keep worker count up. i.e. if you get done early, sleep/hide in your work truck, but you can only park it at these type of locations so it looks ok. Your scheduled route WILL take 8 hours, even if it only takes 5 after your first month. This is very common, even more so in cost plus government contracts where even the company likes it. Every extra $ is that much more profit.

I wish unions had better reputation but at least in the US it one of (mostly) lazy workers making sure they get their cut while doing as little as possible. I know this isn't 100% true but there is a kernel of truth.

Re: Tesla factory workers pushing for a union send demands to Tesla's Board

#116

Post by DrScump » Tue, Aug 01, 2017, 6:36 AM UTC

jackvalentine wrote: post #85

DrScump wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What makes you think that union leaders advocate primarily for "the people" as opposed to their own best interests?

They often do either. It's up to the members of a union to take sufficient interest in it that there are appropriate and effective governance structures in place - in the same way that it's up to the shareholders of a business to do the same.

That's like blaming individual voters for misdeeds by legislative bodies. Except that with unions, ballots aren't necessarily secret.

Re: Tesla factory workers pushing for a union send demands to Tesla's Board

#117

Post by jackvalentine » Tue, Aug 01, 2017, 6:43 AM UTC

DrScump wrote: post #116

jackvalentine wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They often do either. It's up to the members of a union to take sufficient interest in it that there are appropriate and effective governance structures in place - in the same way that it's up to the shareholders of a business to do the same.

That's like blaming individual voters for misdeeds by legislative bodies. Except that with unions, ballots aren't necessarily secret.

I wasn't aware I was blaming anyone for anything?

Organizations of any kind have someone they're supposed to serve - from your neighborhood bowls club to a fortune 500 company.

Organizational (corporate) governance is how you make sure the organization is operating for the benefit of its intended recipients.

Some organizations do governance well. Some do it badly. When the owners (shareholders, members etc) take their eye off the ball over time that organization will skew towards badly.

I don't think this is a controversial statement at all, even when applied to workers' unions.

Re: Tesla factory workers pushing for a union send demands to Tesla's Board

#118

Post by sangnoir » Tue, Aug 01, 2017, 6:58 AM UTC

erikpukinskis wrote: post #112

k-mcgrady wrote: post #65

Are unions demonised in the US in a similar vain to socialism? i.e. made out to be an evil that don't work despite working quite well in many, many other countries? I'm seriously curious about this as I'm quite taken aback at the general hate unions are getting ITT.

The part of I don't like is that unions are given monopoly status within the company. Most of the unions I've seen aren't voluntary. When I was in grad school, I was forced to pay dues into the union. I don't like that. I think there should be as many unions as employees like. I don't understand how the union can be understood to be negotiating on my behalf if I can't choose not to have them negotiate on my behalf. O…

> Get a group together, write a letter to Elon, and threaten to quit. See what he says.

He'll identify the key players and throw them a bone and tell the rest to go ahead and quit, maybe even sue them as an example. The whole point of a union is that it can't be defeated by divide-and-conquer: it provides a reasonable counter-balance to the amount of power wielded by the employer. Instead of the threat of a few people quitting, their biggest leverage is "there'll be work stoppage"

Re: Tesla factory workers pushing for a union send demands to Tesla's Board

#119

Post by crdoconnor » Tue, Aug 01, 2017, 9:00 AM UTC

ohitsdom wrote: post #92

k-mcgrady wrote: post #65

Are unions demonised in the US in a similar vain to socialism? i.e. made out to be an evil that don't work despite working quite well in many, many other countries? I'm seriously curious about this as I'm quite taken aback at the general hate unions are getting ITT.

I'm in the US. I get that on paper unions are good, but I've always heard bad things about them. Recent anecdotes/experience I've encountered: - Factory layoffs HAD to be done by seniority rather than merit. We knowingly laid off top performers, just because they were newer to the company (due to union contract rules). - Vendors at a tech conference got in trouble for moving their display tables a few feet because th…

Can you come up with an objective definition of "merit" that the company can't game in order to fire the most active union members and break the whole thing apart?

IME seniority and political patronage is basically how a lot (if not most) companies promote too - under the guise of being purely concerned about objective performance of course.

Re: Tesla factory workers pushing for a union send demands to Tesla's Board

#120

Post by k-mcgrady » Tue, Aug 01, 2017, 10:37 AM UTC

erikpukinskis wrote: post #112

k-mcgrady wrote: post #65

Are unions demonised in the US in a similar vain to socialism? i.e. made out to be an evil that don't work despite working quite well in many, many other countries? I'm seriously curious about this as I'm quite taken aback at the general hate unions are getting ITT.

The part of I don't like is that unions are given monopoly status within the company. Most of the unions I've seen aren't voluntary. When I was in grad school, I was forced to pay dues into the union. I don't like that. I think there should be as many unions as employees like. I don't understand how the union can be understood to be negotiating on my behalf if I can't choose not to have them negotiate on my behalf. O…

>> I think there should be as many unions as employees like.

I don't know enough to speak to the 'being forced to pay dues' point but having as many unions as employees want defeats the purpose of a union. You need everyone to come together as one to have any power. Have multiple unions and the company can play them off against eachother.

>> To the extent that employees have collective bargaining power, they can just use it. Get a group together, write a letter to Elon, and threaten to quit. See what he says. If you have any leverage, you can use it. If you don't have any leverage why would the union fare any better?

If people that work on the production line doing unskilled tasks got together and complained about safety and refused to work until it was fixed the company could easily fire them and hire another bunch of people tomorrow. If the union comes to the company with the issue on their behalf the company has to listen because the union members will include skilled workers too and they company can't afford to lose them.