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Tech Workers' Values

blog.samaltman.com

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Re: Tech Workers' Values

#111

Post by [deleted] »

ThrowawayR2 wrote: post #87
x0x0 wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have to wonder if this isn't an attempt to co-opt the movement started by @TechSolidarity / Maciej. I also think -- particularly if the HN audience is in any way representative -- that engineering in particular is far too deeply bought into the narrative of the rights of capital owners to unionize. Much like America, we think we're all temporarily embarrassed millionaires. I'm well aware unions aren't perfect. But…

> Much like America, we think we're all temporarily embarrassed millionaires. The reason that old canard doesn't carry a lot of weight around SV and the other tech hubs is that a lot of rank-and file, non-manager techies actually _are_ millionaires.

[deleted]

Re: Tech Workers' Values

#112

Post by zanzibarwutwut »

This:

  As members of the community, we're interested in ways in which tech companies can use their collective power to protect privacy, rule of law, freedom of expression, and other fundamental American rights
And this:

  We also believe tech companies have an opportunity and an obligation to reduce the polarization we've helped create.
are not really compatible. People from Red America already aren't welcome in tech (I am from Red America). This makes polarization worse by creating yet another filter bubble. Making tech companies into even more explicit vehicles for progressive activism might be a good thing on balance, but it won't help with polarization. Pick one.

Re: Tech Workers' Values

#114

Post by fragmede »

AndrewKemendo wrote: post #10

We believe that employees should come together and clearly define the values and policies they'd like to see their companies uphold. A tech union isn't the perfect metaphor for this, but it's not far off. If it's going to do anything but be window dressing then it needs to have the teeth of union - so just call it what it is. I've argued for a while that tech workers need a union, but the chorus on HN and other place…

What's in a name? Lawyers and doctors have unions, but they're called associations, but there's a test, with the full force of the law, for doctoring or lawyering without having passed their respective tests. Github's 'like' button has proved that we developers are just as vain (and lazy) as the next human, so I feel this has more of a chance to succeeded if we recognize that. Some of us take pride in thinking that we are better than plumbers, despite most of us merely being the digital equivalent.

The G in SAG doesn't stand for union.

Re: Tech Workers' Values

#115

Post by plainOldText »

yanilkr wrote: post #38

Tech workers have something so much better than that. Freedom. If you do not like the values of the current company find a new one or start one. Mob rule knows no fairness. When your ideas are vague, people fill them up with their version of fairness. Employees who are just starting out do not know anything about making sacrifices to build something bigger than themselves. If they collectively form a gang and overrid…

> it takes founders and their sacrifices to make things happen

I believe that in many cases, the very first employees are equally responsible for the success of a company. I think this is especially true for tech companies founded by non-engineers.

Re: Tech Workers' Values

#116

Post by xienze »

lazyasciiart wrote: post #101
xienze wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If it's going to do anything but be window dressing then it needs to have the teeth of union - so just call it what it is. This sounds like it's going to have exactly zero to do with what a labor union would normally be concerned with -- pay, working conditions, etc. Instead, I have a strong suspicion this is going to be some sort of enumeration of the progressive ideals that all tech workers "should" be concerned…

> Namely, LGBT stuff, female and minority representation, immigrant's rights, etc. offering parental leave is an excellent example of the kind of thing a union would negotiate, and is also pretty well related to how attractive a company is to women (who are more likely to have childcare responsibilities). Rules against firing someone for being gay or a different religion are a great example of something a union would…

> Rules against firing someone for being gay or a different religion are a great example of something a union would negotiate

Except they're not, that's what our existing laws are for.

> Why do you see 'working conditions' as unrelated to these topics?

Because in my reading of this it doesn't sound like they're going after things like vacation time, pay, IP rights, you know, day-to-day stuff that a union would really be concerned with.

Instead it sounds like they want to define a shared set of principles that tech workers should believe in and then through sheer numbers said workers would convince their employers to be more socially conscious.

So again, I'd be shocked if the results of this were anything other than "A real tech worker believes in the right to an abortion, a real tech worker believes in gay marriage", etc. instead of, say, "a real tech worker believes in a minimum of four weeks paid leave" and similar statements.

tl;dr it's gonna be a bunch of touchy-freely Bay Area stuff.

Re: Tech Workers' Values

#117

Post by theparanoid »

jaequery wrote: post #30

What are your guys thoughts on moving or starting a new tech community in a remote city that are not too expensive, such as Alaska even?

There used to be tech in interior California which is an inexpensive area. Sierra Online/Sierra Entertainment was a notable example. The Grass Valley Group was another.

Paul Graham's "How To a Silicon Valley" [0] has the best recommendations I've seen.

[0] http://www.paulgraham.com/siliconvalley.html

Re: Tech Workers' Values

#118

Post by matt4077 »

amorphid wrote: post #41
AndrewKemendo wrote: post #10

We believe that employees should come together and clearly define the values and policies they'd like to see their companies uphold. A tech union isn't the perfect metaphor for this, but it's not far off. If it's going to do anything but be window dressing then it needs to have the teeth of union - so just call it what it is. I've argued for a while that tech workers need a union, but the chorus on HN and other place…

What benefits would a strong Tech Workers' union to provide? And what percentage of one's income would be membership dues be?

Anything you like, basically.

Without a a union there's a power imbalance between employer and employee. People say it's all based on mutually agreed contracts. In reality, you are probably much more dependent on your job than the company is on you. That's because they may lose something like 1/1000 of their employees when they fire you, but you lose 100% of your jobs[1].

Unions are a way correct this balance. Employees band together, so that failure to reach an agreement is as painful for the employer as it is for the employee, i. e. (in the worst case) work stops and nobody gets paid.

[1]: If you doubt me, try getting Google to come in for 6 interviews and make your future manager do a whiteboard exam.

Re: Tech Workers' Values

#119

Post by ThrustVectoring »

Clanan wrote: post #77

Should this have some sort of warning attached? I'm not sure every company will like having their (unauthorized) employees defining their policies and values. A common controversy with unions, especially when they're forming, is employer discrimination against participants.

The employees already instantiate a company's actual values. They just don't get to decide what the company says its values are.

Re: Tech Workers' Values

#120

Post by yanilkr »

cyphar wrote: post #96
yanilkr wrote: post #38

Tech workers have something so much better than that. Freedom. If you do not like the values of the current company find a new one or start one. Mob rule knows no fairness. When your ideas are vague, people fill them up with their version of fairness. Employees who are just starting out do not know anything about making sacrifices to build something bigger than themselves. If they collectively form a gang and overrid…

You could make the same argument about most engineering disciplines. Yet other engineers have unions, because historically they've had unions and they've worked out well. The only reason that software engineering unions aren't common is because we didn't adopt them at the beginning. Quick reminder that unions are the reason that many of the benefits you have in the workplace today are standardised across the workforc…

That probably explains why "other engineering disciplines" do not have as many startups as software. If you do not like the current place and its values why do you hold others and its owners hostage to your ideals? Why not start a new one and attract better talent with your better values.

Tech companies are trying to do something better than what previous generations could do.

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