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Programmers should not call themselves engineers (2015)

theatlantic.com

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Re: Programmers should not call themselves engineers (2015)

#111

Post by eru »

vatotemking wrote: post #108

Still better than calling yourself code wrangler/ JS ninja. Kidding aside, whats stopping software dev from being regulated and certified in 2017? The previous reason I heard of was that tech changes too rapidly to be standardized.

Where's the demand for that?

Companies don't even trust university degrees right now. The most a degree gets you is a foot in the door; you'll still have to pass a grilling technical interview process.

Making certificates an official requirement just raises artificial barriers to entry, but won't make people actually better.

(If you have a good idea for how to certify actual competence, I am all ears. I'd like to upgrade our hiring practices, too. The current prevalent interviewing style puts way too much emphasis on confidence---which works for outgoing people like me, but we are missing out on a lot of good people.)

Re: Programmers should not call themselves engineers (2015)

#112

Post by eru »

hashkb wrote: post #30
danpalmer wrote: post #15

I call myself a Software Engineer specifically because I see it as different to being a programmer. I don't just write code, I try to solve problems in a rigorous and maintainable way, while being aware of the wider implications of my work to the business, our customers, and anyone else who might be affected by it. Sure we don't have the same regulation as civil engineers, but I try to do my work in the same spirit.…

This misses the point that all other types of engineering are regulated and licensed.

You say that like it's a good thing?

Re: Programmers should not call themselves engineers (2015)

#113

Post by eru »

Alex3917 wrote: post #52
hashkb wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This misses the point that all other types of engineering are regulated and licensed.

> This misses the point that all other types of engineering are regulated and licensed. Software is going to be regulated, licensed, and unionized within the next ten years. The main reason it's not currently is because the best practices have historically changed every couple years due to Moore's Law, but there is about to be an extended slowdown that will give the industry the time it needs to get its act together.

Care to take a bet on that?

We just need to nail down some details: what jurisdiction(s) are we talking about? And what do you mean by licenced?: eg people without the licence won't be allowed to program computers?

What odds are you offering?

I am pretty confident, so I am happy to give you ten to one odds. Ie you pay me 1 dollar if no regulation&unionization happens, I pay you 10 if it does.

Re: Programmers should not call themselves engineers (2015)

#114

Post by [deleted] »

k__ wrote: post #20
guessmyname wrote: post #3

I recently visited Berlin to research about the German Freelance Visa [1] after being rejected by multiple local startups that were looking for Software Engineers with +3 years of work experience. I asked for feedback to one of them and was told that I should not consider myself an "engineer" because I don't have an university degree in the field, even with +9 years of work experience. I asked more people about the t…

Yes, German companies love their degrees... I work as a Freelancer too and all the German contract jobs 'require' a degree 'or similar experience'. In the end, explaining 'similar experience' is a struggle. You even have to pay less taxes if you do 'consulting of higher value' as a freelancer (called freiberufler status) but explaining this without a degree is a struggle too. In the end I'm happy about my B.Sc. in Co…

[deleted]

Re: Programmers should not call themselves engineers (2015)

#115

Post by eru »

k__ wrote: post #20
guessmyname wrote: post #3

I recently visited Berlin to research about the German Freelance Visa [1] after being rejected by multiple local startups that were looking for Software Engineers with +3 years of work experience. I asked for feedback to one of them and was told that I should not consider myself an "engineer" because I don't have an university degree in the field, even with +9 years of work experience. I asked more people about the t…

Yes, German companies love their degrees... I work as a Freelancer too and all the German contract jobs 'require' a degree 'or similar experience'. In the end, explaining 'similar experience' is a struggle. You even have to pay less taxes if you do 'consulting of higher value' as a freelancer (called freiberufler status) but explaining this without a degree is a struggle too. In the end I'm happy about my B.Sc. in Co…

Yeah, the Freiberufler status is crazy.

I don't mind having grown up in Germany---but I don't miss never having worked there.

Re: Programmers should not call themselves engineers (2015)

#116

Post by eru »

adityab wrote: post #33

For what it's worth, in Germany the title of Engineer is regulated and the correct term for those who write software (which goes in the contract) is "Software Entwickler" (Entwicklung means "development"). There's a few more complications here that I don't know very well. I don't completely agree with this because serious engineering work on software happens in many industries. But most software jobs clearly do not f…

I think "Data Scientist" is alright, you just have to keep in mind how fragile and rackety lots of actual scientific code is.

Re: Programmers should not call themselves engineers (2015)

#117

Post by eru »

booleandilemma wrote: post #95

There is a title arms race happening with programmers. If everyone is going to call themselves a Software Engineer on LinkedIn, and I decide to label myself as a Developer, or even worse, a Programmer, I'm going to miss out on opportunities that the "engineers" are going to get. If you don't want programmers calling themselves engineers, just make it illegal for us to do so. I know Texas and Canada already do.

If you are relying on LinkedIn to get opportunities, you are going to miss out on a lot of them. (LinkedIn is a joke. And nobody gives a damn about what people call themselves.)

Re: Programmers should not call themselves engineers (2015)

#120

Post by eru »

Upvoter33 wrote: post #87

Oh give me a break. People who build things (whether in the physical world or not) are engineers. Anyone who has worked at a serious software company knows it's an engineering profession. A more constructive approach would be to say "hey, here are some things engineers have learned over the years; perhaps some of them would be useful to those who build software for a living?"

And the other way round. Version control is terrifically useful eg for architectural drawing, lawyers drafts, contracts etc---but the non-computer professions are only slowly taking it up.
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